6.5 Needsmore

[Sgt_Mike]

Gents time to pull this one back up, just finished up the 22LR's.

Now to devote some time to the Needsmore, in the light weight category. Right now looking at the 100gr Sierria #1710 Varminter.

In the loads below I loaded in a qty of 10 rounds each load. In order to fire 2 -5 shot groups.
First I'll burn some factory loads to get on paper, provide a control groups, and get some more brass.
Then switch to Varget ignited by WLR, pushing the Seirria 100gr varminter #1710 will be the first in the chute.

42.5grs (usually my experience in other calibers has been that 1 grain down from max is usually a safe accurate start point in the x51 and x57 case length)
42.7grs
43.0grs
2.686" COAL for the loads above
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then next load (s)
100gr Sierria Varminter #1710
IMR4350 @ 44.3grs Fed SRP,
Coal of 2.686" COAL
Then same load data except 2.650" COAL (again 10 rounds each differing load). Testing the bullet setting.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Federal Fusion 140gr Bonded Soft Point #F65CRDFS1 (8 round group)

Next the infamous Hornady 147gr ELD-Match factory load (4 shot group, I would have dropped 5 but a cease fire occurred and when cleared I just moved on to the hand Loads)

--------- Now for the Varget Load groups. ---------------------
42.5 grs Varget 1st Iteration

2nd Iteration

------next 42.7grs Varget ---- Same Order-------------

--Next is 43.0 grs Varget-----

__________________________________________________________________________________
-- now for the IMR 4350 (44.3grs) bullet setting depth first up is 2.686" COAL----

----------- now same load data IMR 4350 changing the COAL to 2.650"---------

________________________________________________________________________
In between the 42.5 / 42.7grs Varget (42.6 or 42.4), might be a usable node providing changing the coal to 2.650".

On the IMR 4350 loads I didn't shoot the second Iterations, instead I'll seat the longer COAL to 2.650" to play with a bit more to make sure it's not a false positive on the seating depth. Yes I'm tracking the IMR 4350 load are SRP vs the LRP on the Varget loads.

 

[Plant.One]

wow 43 gr varget looks promising - almost zero vertical deviation on the first string, and about half inch on the 2nd? how'd the es/sd look on those?

 

[Sgt_Mike]

@Plant.One
no clue lol
no chronograph

 

[Plant.One]

fair nuff. most of what i've read re: reading the tea leaves of groups....

vertical dispersion/stringing = sign of good es/sd, and likely a potential good load. error is on shooter, or wind deflection, especially if strong gusts happening that day kinda thing. def want to go back and re-test this kind of result.

horizontal dispersion = higher es/sd, less likely to prove out to be a good load. especially when coupled with bad vertical dispersion.

again, more of loose and dirty "guidelines" than any hard and fast rules. but at least its another datapoint to consider

 

[Sgt_Mike]

"according" to Sierria that bullet with Varget should max out at 43.4grs with a COAL of 2.650"
I was shooting a longer COAL of 2.686"

I'll revisit it with the shorter COAL (2.650") may give the same results of the IMR4350 I tested with the two differing COAL.



Added on Sept. 30th 2025 in lieu of posting a new post. I decided to just edit /add to this one.
I setup 20 rounds with the 100grs #1710's from Sierria.
43.0grs Varget
COAL 2.650"
Federal brass
CCI BR-4
According to published data it should provide around 3150 fps approximately, which I thinking in real world probably around 2900 to 3000.
Although initially the load testing is done at 100 yards, so that I can use the rifle scope as a spotting scope as well for feed back.
I'll probably stretch it out to 200 after 2- 5 shot groups @100yds, and repeat.
_____________________
Then changed the longer 44.3grs of IMR-4350, loads to the shorter COAL (2.650"). Leaving 10 rounds for evaluation. As this maybe the ticket.
______________________
Switched to the Sierria 120gr SMK #1725
Varget again, @ 38.7grs using the COAL of 2.750" and same case and primers as above.

 

[Sgt_Mike]

Today I went to the range with the Creedmoor aka Needsmore. Results was pretty good at first with the 100grSierria with the 43gr Varget load Coal 2.650". I was hammering the start of a beautiful group first four clustered/ touching, then the 5th shot 1-1/8" low Left... huh. Fired another group shot even lower , Right and a lot larger.
I was like is something wrong with the scope??? reached up and grabbed it to wiggle it, then seen the front ring had loosened at the base..... Dug around, wound up having to borrow a T15 screwdriver re- torqued the rings.

Went back to the 100grs 43.0gr Varget Load and punched out a solid MOA group and this was the largest group the two other groups was half the size..
I did try some IMR4350 at 44.3grs with the 100gr Sierrias about 1/4" larger than the Varget load.

I had pulled a load out of my tail for the 120gr SMK using IMR 4350 @ 44.6grs WLR primer set at a COAL of 2.746"
Hammered this out for a 5 shot group.

The 0.75" 5 shot group above was the worst of the the three 5 shot groups with that load (the other two was 0.5" 5 shot groups). I did try some Varget loads with the 120's nothing gave a good indication of a progression toward this well. ... Now to get some more IM4350 for the 120's.
Looks like I have the go to loads for the 100gr Seirria Varminter and the 120 gr SMK in the Needsmore.

Now to load them up and to the 200 yard line to check if the load is linear. If so then call my buddy Ed to shoot over his chronograph for a bit to get the average velocity for these.

Tomorrow brings forth dragging the Daughter ( which means I have to hand her a 1K loan) to order her Marlin 336 Trapper in 30-30 from a LGS.
Man you should have heard her squeal with delight when I looked at her and said yeah I'll loan you a grand in cash from my sock drawer. After her laminating how hard it was was to save up cash.
Regards,
Mike

 

[Nonnieselman]

I threw a 6.5 Needmoor together for a buddy from spare parts i had and he ordered some other parts we needed.
140gr ELDM with H4350 was a pretty decent load. I worked up a ladder test and found a wide sweet spot.
His first time ever shooting 300 yards and he managed a 1.28" 3 shot group.
Now i have him hooked and we are going out to 1000 after crops are cut.

Never been a fan of the needmoor, but i got him suckered in by shooting my 20" 223 out to 600 yards in the wind and thats all it took. We started looking around for parts and here we are now.

 

[alf]

fair nuff. most of what i've read re: reading the tea leaves of groups....
vertical dispersion/stringing = sign of good es/sd, and likely a potential good load. error is on shooter, or wind deflection, especially if strong gusts happening that day kinda thing. def want to go back and re-test this kind of result.
horizontal dispersion = higher es/sd, less likely to prove out to be a good load. especially when coupled with bad vertical dispersion.again, more of loose and dirty "guidelines" than any hard and fast rules. but at least its another datapoint to consider

Generally, & leaving environmental conditions out of the equation, vertical is powder charge, horizontal is seating depth......

 

[DiRTY DOG]

Varget and 80gr Hammer HHT bullets or 85gr HH @ 3400fps. This was my 100 yard ladder/velocity test at initial load development.

3/4" dot, each shot is a different by 0.2gr. Hammer bullets shoot really well.

 

[Plant.One]

Generally, & leaving environmental conditions out of the equation, vertical is powder charge, horizontal is seating depth......

so what is the mechanism that makes horizontal equate to seating depth?

like.. i totally appreciate how seating depth can change how a particular load groups overall, and can affect pressure - and therefore slightly effect velocity - (longer seating depth = more case volume, ergo in relation to powder charge, lowers pressure - and of course opposite for shorter seating depth taking up case capacity, and increasing pressure)

not trying to be snarky, tryin to get a bit more knowledge crammed in-between my earwax holders

 

[alf]

so what is the mechanism that makes horizontal equate to seating depth?

I don't believe I can give you a coherent answer as to the exact reasoning behind it, however it's not a hard & fast rule, just another club in the bag.

From my early Benchrest days, if you have vertical, you need to up the powder charge to get into the "node". As conditions change throughout the day, you might have to reduce to get the "dots" back. Generally, once you find the "spot" for seating depth, it doesn't change, except to chase the lands due to barrel wear.

 

[Bob_Atl]

In my case, horizontal dispersion (only) is on me or da-wind, vertical dispersion (only) is the load/OAL.
Dispersion in both is just a bad day !

 

[Plant.One]

In my case, horizontal dispersion (only) is on me or da-wind, vertical dispersion (only) is the load/OAL.
Dispersion in both is just a bad day !

that matches my expierence!

 

[alf]

 

[c_bass16]

if you're not using a 140+ class bullet...then the Creed wasn't meant for you. The ENTIRE reason it was developed is to fit a 140+ class bullet inside a 2.870 mag. That's it. It's not magic. It's not trying to be something it's not.

Run a 145, 147, 153 or 156 and compare the same bullet in a 260 Rem or 308 and you'll see the reason it was made. You wanna run a 100gr bullet, you could have gotten 100fps more speed with a 260 Rem, shot as good or better groups/critters and your buddies wouldn't tease you.

I suppose I'm curious, what does it need more of??
150 SMK at 2740

 

[Sgt_Mike]

your buddies wouldn't tease you.

Actually my buddies don't tease me... they only tease me when I post a 3 shot group in the attempts to brag or prove a point.
5 shot groups size or more is usually what we use for evaluation. And none of us carry a "wallet" laminated group rather will reference the worst group to best group size when discussing loads.

I suppose I'm curious, what does it need more of??

Maybe you should have actually read which I did mention in one post, maybe not this thread.
It needsmore shooting

The needsmore pun was intended for more load development for the projectile choice, and the fact that I just need to shoot it more.

Now if you want to make a issue of my choice of reference, I could refer it it as the "Crymore", or maybe "the skinnyjean kids baby 308".
Or we can just understand I'm NOT slamming the round. QUIT being so dang sensitive, I have seen this behavior in multiple post by you. If I didn't like the cartridge I wouldn't feed it, buy powder, bullets, and primers for it.
I would have pulled the barrel and went with something else. Or sold it.

if you're not using a 140+ class bullet...then the Creed wasn't meant for you.

Funny a lot of "hunting" loads other than Hornady. Load with 125grs bullets, Winchester "Deer Season XP" for example, which this rifle really likes.

X65DS | Winchester Ammunition

winchester.com

There is also a full copper offering in the 125 gr from winchester which, when it's a monolithic the length for weight is longer and is in line with a cup and core 140gr bullet.



And I suppose that the F-class shooters that are running 130's Bergers are just "wrong" the cartridge just wasn't meant for them. Yeaaahhhhh good luck with that on a actual firing line in a real competition.

Now if you have the opinion that only Hornady 140's eld-m Match is worthy of your consideration. By all means carry on, believe what you wish.
But don't fault those whom don't drink the Kool-aid.

--------------------------------------------------------
For all others, thank you for your assistance.

These was extremely helpful (there was actually many whom contributed)

Run Varget with the lighter stuff, H4350 for the heavies. I own several and have done a lot of load work for buddies and 41.5gr of H4350 with 140s is kinda a "standard" load for long range stuff. I haven't done much with the lighter weight stuff but the burn rate of Varget is much more suitable for the lighter stuff. If your running 90gr or less I wouldn't leave out H4895 either, good luck!

Yes sir,
100gr Sierra Varminter
In one loading I switched to IMR-4895 @ 41.6grs lengthened the COAL to 2.655", which held a 5 shot group at 1.25" outside to outside, so yep much progress there. Although still getting a bit of horizonal stringing. The Varget loads was slowly coming together in that weight but, I reread your post, then went to the IMR vs the Hodgdon because the burn rate sits between Varget and H4895 ever so slightly. I don't have H4895, but will soon pick some up as it seems the supply of IMR is hampered.

I found the data and target for my Bergara 6.5 CM with IMR4350 & 140gr. Hornady BTHP, and I'll also mention, an unheard of H4831 shoots well also. Looking for the target

View attachment 19390

Dave, This was helpful as well.. even though the projectile you used was 20grs heavier, it at least provided a direction
120gr SMK
Here IMR-4350 is doing well, being a bit slower faster than the conventional wisdom of H4350. ( using 44.6grs)
I might try going a bit faster in burn rate (Varget, maybe IMR4895/H4895). Just to see if it has a happy spot in the burn rate.

So far there is about three loads /powders that looks promising for these two bullet weights.

Thanks a lot to all those for guiding me to a more suitable burn rate.
I did enjoy the drift with the Vertical Horizontal dispersion, no pun intended. The information and discussion was a great reminder.

Again thank you Gentlemen
Respectfully
Mike

 

[William Suter]

My Creed (Sig Cross) didn't shoot light bullets as well as I was hoping. Good enough to hunt with but seems my better groups were with the 140 and up grain bullets. H4350 also seemed to be the powder of choice to.

 

[Sgt_Mike]

Played around with some of Kinko M's suggested powder choices (IMR-4895) for lightweight projectiles. This was the 300 yard Line.
Thank you for the tip Sir.

but maybe as @c_bass16 suggested ... maybe the Creedmoor isn't for me.
I won't shoot the designated projectiles nor used the approved powders
I don't have neat phone apps but I do know how to do math
(one great advantage of graduating HS before a Department of Education was started / formed, and I can read and write in cursive)
1.1045" outside to outside - .264" bullet diameter = 0.8405" group size center to center
1 MOA = 1.047 for every 100 yards (x3=3.141) so that 5 shot group is 0.268 MOA (0.8405" divided by 3.141)
Had I used the first three shots the group size would have been half of what it is.
Yes I know the Math was way drawn out. But back when I went to school that was referred to as showing "your work" so that they knew you understood how math worked.

But then again I'm just a old fat retired guy shooting a Rem 700 PCR in 6.5 CM, and enjoying my needsmore, and other non modern cartridges.

Give ya three guesses which one is the needsmore... first two don't count

 

[Kino M]

Your welcome, glad I could help and glad it worked out!!

 

[c_bass16]

Actually my buddies don't tease me... they only tease me when I post a 3 shot group in the attempts to brag or prove a point.
5 shot groups size or more is usually what we use for evaluation. And none of us carry a "wallet" laminated group rather will reference the worst group to best group size when discussing loads.


Maybe you should have actually read which I did mention in one post, maybe not this thread.
It needsmore shooting

The needsmore pun was intended for more load development for the projectile choice, and the fact that I just need to shoot it more.

Now if you want to make a issue of my choice of reference, I could refer it it as the "Crymore", or maybe "the skinnyjean kids baby 308".
Or we can just understand I'm NOT slamming the round. QUIT being so dang sensitive, I have seen this behavior in multiple post by you. If I didn't like the cartridge I wouldn't feed it, buy powder, bullets, and primers for it.
I would have pulled the barrel and went with something else. Or sold it.

I love when the Fudds come out to play. I missed this place