Why no love for the 223 wssm? Why so much love for 6.5s in ARs?

S

SalemDawger

New member
Ok, so I've been waiting for a DPMS 24in .204 ruger barrel to come off back order for a long time for my next build and it has me thinking, why not just build a 223 wssm? The Super Short has better ballistics than a 22-250 with like bullets and is almost ballistically identical to a 204 but with 10-15 grain heavier bullets. I know the round looks dumb, and I doubt barrel life will be great, but it appears like it is ballistically the very best western coyote caliber for ARs. Yet no one talks about them.

I also am having a hard time understanding why all the love over the AR15 6.5s, which to me seem to be in that perfect place of too slow for varmints and too small for larger game. What am I missing?
 
Originally Posted By: SalemDawgerOk, so I've been waiting for a DPMS 24in .204 ruger barrel to come off back order for a long time for my next build and it has me thinking, why not just build a 223 wssm? The Super Short has better ballistics than a 22-250 with like bullets and is almost ballistically identical to a 204 but with 10-15 grain heavier bullets. I know the round looks dumb, and I doubt barrel life will be great, but it appears like it is ballistically the very best western coyote caliber for ARs. Yet no one talks about them.

I also am having a hard time understanding why all the love over the AR15 6.5s, which to me seem to be in that perfect place of too slow for varmints and too small for larger game. What am I missing?

I've often wondered this as well. I don't buy the barrel life argument because a lot of barrel burning rounds are still very popular. It makes me think that the accuracy isn't there for this round. I've done some research on this and found a lot of posts about four inch groups with low round count barrels.
If your looking for close to 22-250 speed in an ar platform check out the .22x6.8. It kinda looks tempting!
 
I buy the barrel life problems, esp in an autoloader. Mags aren't $90 but are higher than normal mags. Cbass makes modded pmags for a reasonable fee. But brass is tough to get now and tougher yet to work with. Necks are very thick. You cannot build your own upper; proprietary parts are used.

IDK, I had a 25 wssm and probably won't go through that again. You would be better off with a variant on the 6.8 or 6.5 case IMO.

I've been waiting on those barrels from DPMS also as a replacement for my aging 204 barrel, though it's still hanging in there and shooting well. But after working with my BHW 20 prac I might order another one from them in a bull configuration.
 
there is a guy who did a a 6.5x47 based case that he necked down and shortened to 25 cal, that to me is the coolest AR variant I have seen yet. it would be awesome as a 6mm or 22 varient as well IMO it would make more sense than the 25 he did it in.

the WSSM is a dead round, its ubber fat, its just funky. brass is going to dry up. a few guys doing some 6.8 based wildcats, while cool and interesting. If you load a 223 case to the same pressures your only talking maybe 150 fps extra by virtue of the slightly larger 6.8 case. The grendel case is almost the same size albeit shorter which is why its better suited for long 6.5 bullets than a 6.8 case. its all a trade off when you are limited so much in mag length.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettthere is a guy who did a a 6.5x47 based case that he necked down and shortened to 25 cal, that to me is the coolest AR variant I have seen yet. it would be awesome as a 6mm or 22 varient as well IMO it would make more sense than the 25 he did it in.

the WSSM is a dead round, its ubber fat, its just funky. brass is going to dry up. a few guys doing some 6.8 based wildcats, while cool and interesting. If you load a 223 case to the same pressures your only talking maybe 150 fps extra by virtue of the slightly larger 6.8 case. The grendel case is almost the same size albeit shorter which is why its better suited for long 6.5 bullets than a 6.8 case. its all a trade off when you are limited so much in mag length.

Your figures for the 22X6.8 are off by a small amount. According to the last Hornady manual The 223 tops out at 3400 FPS with a 50 grain Vmax. The 22X6.8 will push the same bullet at 3750 FPS. If my math is correct that comes out to 350 FPS. Not to bad for a slightly larger case.
Also just an FYI The Lapua 6.5 Grendel and the SSA 6.8 case have exactly the same capacity.
 
if you figure the 4:1 rule for case compacity for speed you will find what I said is true. remember the 223 is hamstrung by 55kpsi loading data. if your loading to equal pressures the 6.8 case isn't getting that much extra IMO.
 
Very interesting posts. I did not know that the wssm magazines were $90! Also I think Steve is probably right, it is likely a caliber that will end in obscurity.

I have not been able to find the bolt for the 223 wssm so it seems 204 AR is right, and my point is I want to build the upper, not buy one built. Also Thanks for the info on reloading the wssm. Sound like something I do not want to do!
Honestly, I got tired of the hassle of loading wildcats for a a few of my bolt guns and after a while I just kind of quit shooting them because I didn't enjoy lots of trimming and lots of resizing brass down or the process of fire forming AI calibers. While none of the steps are hard they just seemed to cost me time I don't have. I guess I'm getting lazy but there is something to be said for the ease of loading factory brass.

I guess the quest for the perfect coyote AR caliber goes on. And yes the limited length of the 5.56 may mean that it does not exist.

I guess I will reorder the DPMS 204 tube and wait my turn in line.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettif you figure the 4:1 rule for case compacity for speed you will find what I said is true. remember the 223 is hamstrung by 55kpsi loading data. if your loading to equal pressures the 6.8 case isn't getting that much extra IMO.


Your batting 1000. Wrong again Every one of the 6.8 wildcats I build have been pressure tested. Have you even shot a 22X6.8? Probably not! Go ahead and us the Western Powder data. A 5.56 with a 50 grain bullet at 61,000 PSI runs 3500 FPS. The 22X6.8 still has it by 250 FPS
 
More powder= more power. Case capacity 223-29g and change, 6.8-34g and change. Back to op the 223wssm has too much of a bulky weird shaped case which complicates operation in an AR re mags bolts feeding etc imo.(don't and won't own one)
 
Originally Posted By: R JohnsonOriginally Posted By: steve garrettif you figure the 4:1 rule for case compacity for speed you will find what I said is true. remember the 223 is hamstrung by 55kpsi loading data. if your loading to equal pressures the 6.8 case isn't getting that much extra IMO.


Your batting 1000. Wrong again Every one of the 6.8 wildcats I build have been pressure tested. Have you even shot a 22X6.8? Probably not! Go ahead and us the Western Powder data. A 5.56 with a 50 grain bullet at 61,000 PSI runs 3500 FPS. The 22X6.8 still has it by 250 FPS

I disagree, according to the sources I could find the 223 has a case compacity of 31.4 grains the 6.8 has 36 grains. That means the 6.8 has 14.6% greater case compacity. when you apply the 4:1 rule for a given pressure, barrel length etc you come up with 3.6% faster. if we are talking 22 caliber with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 @ 3300fps, math and physics say approx 118 fps increase. yes every combo is different, fast barrels, slow barrels etc. I suspect people are loading the 6.8 wildcats up till they are seeing pressure signs. I suspect since high pressure data for the 223 is very lacking most 223 loaders aren't doing that.

don't get me wrong I am not bashing the 6.8 wildcats. I think they are cool actually. I kinda want one, but the speed increase isn't enough for me to give up the convenience of the 223, I don't care if my gun pukes out cases and I can't find them. for me I need 300 fps for me to switch to something besides 223 and deal with the added hassles.
 
At some point the bullets don't stabilize, and it's just an accuracy issue..

Why buy a gun that shoots just barely faster than a 22-250 when you can't walk into almost any store and buy the ammunition? I would rather use a 22-250 over that short fat turd and pay a lot more for brass for the pleasure of it.

I like the Grendal, because i can get a replacement upper and fire off a Grendal bullet at an Elk. My kids want to shoot and what better platform for smaller kids to use than an AR that eats up almost all of the recoil?

I have seen the Grendal in action and it's a case of consitent accuracy and wind buck vs. Speed. Most of the guys that i know that use them, don't skin them, so pelt damage isnt' an issue. This is not a very fur friendly caliber. However, The friends i know that use them and hunt with are in an area that has a lot of wind and often it's so bad they close the freeway. So, ya, wind bucking is important. All of the above and it's just a fad thing too.
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZAt some point the bullets don't stabilize, and it's just an accuracy issue..

Why buy a gun that shoots just barely faster than a 22-250 when you can't walk into almost any store and buy the ammunition? I would rather use a 22-250 over that short fat turd and pay a lot more for brass for the pleasure of it.

I like the Grendal, because i can get a replacement upper and fire off a Grendal bullet at an Elk. My kids want to shoot and what better platform for smaller kids to use than an AR that eats up almost all of the recoil?

I have seen the Grendal in action and it's a case of consitent accuracy and wind buck vs. Speed. Most of the guys that i know that use them, don't skin them, so pelt damage isnt' an issue. This is not a very fur friendly caliber. However, The friends i know that use them and hunt with are in an area that has a lot of wind and often it's so bad they close the freeway. So, ya, wind bucking is important. All of the above and it's just a fad thing too.

Very astute observations. The 6.5 has really become my favorite cartridge. It is VERY forgiving for hand loaders. It is very consistent ballisitcally. It is a VERY accurate cartridge. I am using our 20in, HBAR, 416 stainless 6.5 Grendel that we use for our production rifle and I shot a .413in, 3 shot, 100 yard group with it. I moved over to my shooting sticks and parked 3 under a 5/8in dot from my shooting sticks. These groups were shot with factory Hornady match ammunition shooting 123gr A-max bullets.

I had the opportunity last week to talk with Bill Alexander at the SHOT show and the man is quite amazing to talk to. He was really focused on getting just the right blend of characteristics in the 6.5G and I think he has done it.

The .204 is also another really great option. it is a lot of fun to shoot and factory ammunition is readily available. I am not really sold on the shorts until they get more factory ammunition options available.

I think that in the interest of ammunition availability and surviving the recent "runs" on ammunition, every AR owner should have a 17rem or a 204, a 6.5G and a 5.56/.223rem.

The .223/5.56 is the first ammunition to go dry when the rush is on. Then go the 6.5's, then the .204's and finally the 17rems. So if a person were to own these calibers they can survive the ammunition runs that we have seen in recent years.
 
Originally Posted By: 204 ARI buy the barrel life problems, esp in an autoloader. Mags aren't $90 but are higher than normal mags. Cbass makes modded pmags for a reasonable fee. But brass is tough to get now and tougher yet to work with. Necks are very thick. You cannot build your own upper; proprietary parts are used.

IDK, I had a 25 wssm and probably won't go through that again. You would be better off with a variant on the 6.8 or 6.5 case IMO.

I recently sold my .243 WSSM, and since I don't have a rifle to test feeding or function, I'm not taking any more Pmag mods...BUT
I already miss having it, and am planning another one down the line. When I get a new upper, I'll be doing them again.

Brass isn't hard to find at all, you just need to know where to look.

Here's 18,000 pieces of the good stuff. Fed head stamps, less thick necks, less hard brass.
Made by Win to Fed specs. When the WSSMzone was still up and running...it was well known that the Fed WSSM brass was the stuff to get.
http://store.iqmetals.com/223wssmbrass.aspx
 
I vendor, at almost double what Grafs used to sell the same stuff for, isn't exactly what I'd call good availability. Of course to be fair a lot of brass falls into that category right now.
 
That's about the same price as I am seeing 6.8 and 6.5 brass for currently. Not really bad when you figure 500 pieces would probably be more than most shooters would wear out.

Greg
 
Originally Posted By: cbass16Originally Posted By: 204 ARI buy the barrel life problems, esp in an autoloader. Mags aren't $90 but are higher than normal mags. Cbass makes modded pmags for a reasonable fee. But brass is tough to get now and tougher yet to work with. Necks are very thick. You cannot build your own upper; proprietary parts are used.

IDK, I had a 25 wssm and probably won't go through that again. You would be better off with a variant on the 6.8 or 6.5 case IMO.

I recently sold my .243 WSSM, and since I don't have a rifle to test feeding or function, I'm not taking any more Pmag mods...BUT

I already miss having it, and am planning another one down the line. When I get a new upper, I'll be doing them again.

Brass isn't hard to find at all, you just need to know where to look.

Here's 18,000 pieces of the good stuff. Fed head stamps, less thick necks, less hard brass.
Made by Win to Fed specs. When the WSSMzone was still up and running...it was well known that the Fed WSSM brass was the stuff to get.
http://store.iqmetals.com/223wssmbrass.aspx
.

I went back and read almost everything I could find in the archives on the 243wssm in the ar and watched all your videos that pertained to your ar. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a future build. I really wanted a 243wssm with a fast twist barrel to shoot 105 grain + bullets but I am unsure how it would work in an ar-15. I figured I would use Oly arms UMAR lower. What's your thoughts on this?
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: R JohnsonOriginally Posted By: steve garrettif you figure the 4:1 rule for case compacity for speed you will find what I said is true. remember the 223 is hamstrung by 55kpsi loading data. if your loading to equal pressures the 6.8 case isn't getting that much extra IMO.


Your batting 1000. Wrong again Every one of the 6.8 wildcats I build have been pressure tested. Have you even shot a 22X6.8? Probably not! Go ahead and us the Western Powder data. A 5.56 with a 50 grain bullet at 61,000 PSI runs 3500 FPS. The 22X6.8 still has it by 250 FPS

I disagree, according to the sources I could find the 223 has a case compacity of 31.4 grains the 6.8 has 36 grains. That means the 6.8 has 14.6% greater case compacity. when you apply the 4:1 rule for a given pressure, barrel length etc you come up with 3.6% faster. if we are talking 22 caliber with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 @ 3300fps, math and physics say approx 118 fps increase. yes every combo is different, fast barrels, slow barrels etc. I suspect people are loading the 6.8 wildcats up till they are seeing pressure signs. I suspect since high pressure data for the 223 is very lacking most 223 loaders aren't doing that.

don't get me wrong I am not bashing the 6.8 wildcats. I think they are cool actually. I kinda want one, but the speed increase isn't enough for me to give up the convenience of the 223, I don't care if my gun pukes out cases and I can't find them. for me I need 300 fps for me to switch to something besides 223 and deal with the added hassles.

How can you disagree sighting mathematical theory versus someone who builds and shoots the cartridge you are second guessing. What Ritch has said is fact backed up by countless rifles, pressure tests and practical shooting. When someone like Ritch talks about AR's and wildcats therein, you'd be wise to listen. He has BTDT on multiple occasions and is not just spewing mathematical theory.
 
Originally Posted By: pahntr760Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: R JohnsonOriginally Posted By: steve garrettif you figure the 4:1 rule for case compacity for speed you will find what I said is true. remember the 223 is hamstrung by 55kpsi loading data. if your loading to equal pressures the 6.8 case isn't getting that much extra IMO.


Your batting 1000. Wrong again Every one of the 6.8 wildcats I build have been pressure tested. Have you even shot a 22X6.8? Probably not! Go ahead and us the Western Powder data. A 5.56 with a 50 grain bullet at 61,000 PSI runs 3500 FPS. The 22X6.8 still has it by 250 FPS

X2

I disagree, according to the sources I could find the 223 has a case compacity of 31.4 grains the 6.8 has 36 grains. That means the 6.8 has 14.6% greater case compacity. when you apply the 4:1 rule for a given pressure, barrel length etc you come up with 3.6% faster. if we are talking 22 caliber with a 55 grain bullet from a 223 @ 3300fps, math and physics say approx 118 fps increase. yes every combo is different, fast barrels, slow barrels etc. I suspect people are loading the 6.8 wildcats up till they are seeing pressure signs. I suspect since high pressure data for the 223 is very lacking most 223 loaders aren't doing that.

don't get me wrong I am not bashing the 6.8 wildcats. I think they are cool actually. I kinda want one, but the speed increase isn't enough for me to give up the convenience of the 223, I don't care if my gun pukes out cases and I can't find them. for me I need 300 fps for me to switch to something besides 223 and deal with the added hassles.

How can you disagree sighting mathematical theory versus someone who builds and shoots the cartridge you are second guessing. What Ritch has said is fact backed up by countless rifles, pressure tests and practical shooting. When someone like Ritch talks about AR's and wildcats therein, you'd be wise to listen. He has BTDT on multiple occasions and is not just spewing mathematical theory.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top