Primers?

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pyscodog

Active member
Not talking bench Rest, just loads use for hunting? How much difference do you think a primer really makes? I have 15 rounds loaded, same caliber, same bullet, same case,same powder charge and same OAL, but three different primers.I want to see first hand how much difference it will make.Guess I should take my chrony to see if there will be a difference in velocity too.
 
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I notice a very large difference in velocity and extreme spread with some powder/primer combinations.

That of course gives you much better consistency when you hit the right velocity/accuracy zone. Also more flexibility when loading if you are .1 off either way when you are throwing powder.

I use WSR for ball powders because the numbers don't lie.
 
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More than once I tried several different groups with no changes other than primers. Did this with my .220 Swift, my .17 Remington, my .221 Fireball, my .223 as well as my .223 AI. I cannot tell you now years later what all the different kinds of primers that I tried were but the ones that gave me the best groups were match primers. Matter of fact, all my best groups using cases that took the small rifle primer were with the CCI BR-4. The only exception to this is my .17 Hornet which seems to like the Remington 7 1/2 just as well or even a bit better.

Now then- has this ever translated into making hits that I would have missed had I been using some other primer? There is no way of knowing that of course. But if I am getting really good groups using a certain kind of cap then the chances are that's what I will be using in the field as well. Every little bit of confidence inspiration I can use.

I hate to pay the price for match primers but I usually will. Not for everything I shoot but if I am spending a couple thousand dollars or more a year shooting varmints then I dont worry too much about the price of the spark.
 
I also love the CCI BR primers, the 2s and 4s, single digit velocity spreads are common with very accurate powder measuring.

A couple months ago there was a thread started here that showed the comparison of different primer's ignition... or sparks/fireball, not sure what to call it. The test was a still picture taken of a primer being set off in a blank case head so just the primer ignition fireball could be seen, there were large differences between brands and types. Maybe someone could find the link....


Edit..... here's a link http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html
 
I have about 4-5 bricks of Fed 205's and as many Rem 7 1/2's. A couple bricks of CCI 400 and just bought a brick of 450's. So, primers...I got some. My test is with the 400, 7 1/2, and the 450's. I'll let you know how it works out. Oh...rifle is my VLS Remmy 223, BM powder and 53 grain VMax.
 
I'm a big CCI fan, between the 400s and 450s there is a lot of difference between how hard the cup is. You will start flattening primers a lot sooner with the 400s, the 450s can really take a beating before they start flattening. The benefit being if you're looking for velocity and accuracy you will likely be able to add enough more powder to get up to the next accuracy node of your rifle.

I was just out shooting today with 450s and 53vmax with 26.44gr of benchmark, it's a hefty load with the LC case nearly compressing the powder but still no flattening primers, that's with a Black Hole barrel that keeps pressures low, it would probably be a different story with a land and groove.
 
Originally Posted By: pyscodogFrom looking at the photo's, the Remington 7 1/2 is hands down the hottest primer of the ones that are shown.
Yeah, but there's no CCI 450, and the F205M are "vintage" 30+ years old. The test is pretty incomplete without those two.
 
I generally use a CCI 450 in everything, but if I can’t get bugholes consistently after 50 or so rounds (and the groups are actually showing some promise) I’ll try a BR primer.

I would love to give Federal 205M a try, but I don’t ever see them locally, so I wouldn’t want to become addicted.

The only case I’ve ever seen where I couldn’t get optimal accuracy with a 450 was a CZ 223 using Benchmark. The BR4 worked well.

The only cases I have right now that don’t use small rifle primers are a 22-250 and a 25-06, I use 250s in those.

Even my 7-08 is now using small primer/large flash hole brass.

More than anything, it’s about pressure and an optimal harmonic pattern in the barrel. I think with enough time and tinkering you could make any primer work, but it’s strictly CCI for me.
 
I really enjoy reading all the tests and such.

Some folks won't see a difference when changing primers. That could be because they changed from a good one that was working to another good one. Or using a stick powder that is not primer finicky. Its possible there will not be much difference with that exact bullet weight, case fill volume & powder type etc.


I have yet to see a bad shooting load, shoot good with a primer swap. Normally i swap them to let the winners run. Kind of making really good, as good as possible.

Trying to keep velocity spread between 20 - 30 fps on a good shooting load has been solved several times by primer testing.

Of course i start a grain below and work back up to that level. In some cases i used less powder & achieved higher velocities by switching primers.

Took me one time to notice that.
 
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I can't explain this, I have a couple hunting loads for my 223 that I put all the effort into loading as I do my Fclass ammo, one a 53vmax/450/BM load and the other 65sgk/450/CFE223 both I am meticulous about seating depth , most the time they shoot well.

Then I have cheap plinking ammo for when I practice shooting close and rapid, standing and reloading etc... That's a load I put together quick and cheap, Hornady 50gr SP/H335/ some loaded with 400s some rem7.5s, this ammo I weigh out to the nearest .5gr and hardly care about seating depth the hunting stuff I load to the nearest .02-.04gr.

I just did a lot of shooting yesterday and was again reminded just how dang good that cheap ammo shoots, when I try for groups they're around half a dang inch even with mixed primers, the hunting stuff is around an inch, sometimes when I really try with sandbags and a good rest I've had bullet holes touching but the cheap ammo usually wins. This AR has a 1-4 VXR scope with maybe a 2moa red dot so shooting for groups is not its intended purpose but that cheap ammo almost always performs better... For some reason it kind of bothers me.
 
Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerI can't explain this, I have a couple hunting loads for my 223 that I put all the effort into loading as I do my Fclass ammo, one a 53vmax/450/BM load and the other 65sgk/450/CFE223 both I am meticulous about seating depth , most the time they shoot well.

Then I have cheap plinking ammo for when I practice shooting close and rapid, standing and reloading etc... That's a load I put together quick and cheap, Hornady 50gr SP/H335/ some loaded with 400s some rem7.5s, this ammo I weigh out to the nearest .5gr and hardly care about seating depth the hunting stuff I load to the nearest .02-.04gr.

I just did a lot of shooting yesterday and was again reminded just how dang good that cheap ammo shoots, when I try for groups they're around half a dang inch even with mixed primers, the hunting stuff is around an inch, sometimes when I really try with sandbags and a good rest I've had bullet holes touching but the cheap ammo usually wins. This AR has a 1-4 VXR scope with maybe a 2moa red dot so shooting for groups is not its intended purpose but that cheap ammo almost always performs better... For some reason it kind of bothers me.

Could be the reloading dies causing runout, or maybe the crimp commonly found on cheap 223 Ammo is telling you it wants more neck tension. It could even be that the factory Ammo is hotter and that’s what your barrel wants.

Just for kicks, try a CCI BR4 with that Benchmark load and wiggle the charge weight around a little.

I agree it would be frustrating for cheap Ammo to outperform carefully loaded rounds.
 
Well, made it to the range this morning. I was kinda surprised at the results. My load was Win brass, 26.4 grains of BenchMark and a 53 grain Vmax seated just kissing the lands.

5 rounds with Remington 7 1/2, group wasn't very good around an inch and velocity was 3406 for a 5 shot average.

5 with CCI 400, decent group, a little over 1/2", velocity was 3403

last was CCI 450's, groups was about the same as the 400's and velocity was 3404.

Then I had 5 that was the same except 26.9 grains of B. Velocity for those averaged 3468 but the group was considerably better with 4 in a ragged hole and one just out. (Figured that was me.)

Last was some 40 grain Bergers loaded with Varget. What a disappointment that was. Although they shoot good, velocity was only 3297 and it was a pretty full house load, (27 grains). Really figured they would be faster than they were.

So, the best I can figure out so far is the 450's gave just a slight edge on accuracy over the 400 and the 7 1/2 primers. I did notice my deviation with the 7 1/2 primers were the lowest with 35 and the highest was with the 400's at 79. The 450 was 69. I;m going to have to work on this and try to get the numbers down.
 
My best velocity spreads have always been with the CCI BR primers, more times than not in the single digit range even in an AR.

Varget is not the powder for those 40gr. try the benchmark or H322 if you're looking for more speed.

What kind of barrel do you have?
 
I clipped one coil off the trigger spring on my 204R TC dimension to drop it below 3.5 #, with CCI br primers I have occasional no fire. Have not had any issues with 71/2's. Better groups with the CCI br but not 100% reliable.
 
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshootI clipped one coil off the trigger spring on my 204R TC dimension to drop it below 3.5 #, with CCI br primers I have occasional no fire. Have not had any issues with 71/2's. Better groups with the CCI br but not 100% reliable.

I have found that true also with the cci primers. Had at least 1 out of every 100 not fire.. Not sure if it was a bad case of them or what the problem is.. Dan
 
I've done everything I could to my stock AR trigger except lighten the hammer spring and I haven't had a problem. It would be interesting to see a test done one comparing the cup hardness of different primers. Have you ever tried factory 5.56 in that rifle? They are supposed to be harder cups also.


.....edit.... I suppose NO ONE makes factory 5.56 for a 204 Ruger huh...?
crazy.gif
 
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