17 Mach IV and Rem 17 Fire Ball

N

NFG

New member
I'm trying to chase down definitive information comparing the two cases and going nutz in the process.

I was just about to chamber a 17 M4 when the Rem version came out. I haven't been able to find a case to measure and all the information I've come up with falls into the catagory of "I'm not certain...but" or is several months old.

Are they identical for certain? I don't want to purchase M4 forming dies if I can just buy loaded ammo and I won't chamber the M4 version if I can find a 17 FB reamer because factory 17 FB ammo is all over the place right now.

Any help or links will be appreciated.

Enjoy
 
This has been discussed at length at Saubier.com. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Basically, from what I have gathered, if you fire a 17 Fireball in a 17 Fireball rifle, the spent case will not chamber in a 17 Mach IV rifle. However, the reverse is not true. A spent 17M4 case fired in a 17M4 rifle will chamber in a 17 Fireball.

Also, Redding and RCBS are both making new dies for the 17 Fireball. RCBS dies are on the shelf in limited amounts. Redding dies will be available in about six weeks.

They are different, but the differences are very small. At least one guy at Saubier.com has fired a 17 Fireball cartridge in a 17 Mach IV rifle, and had no problems.

For more detailed info and measurements go to Saubier.com.

GrouseSetter
 
They generally are interchangeable. BUT, the 17 Mach IV was not a SAAMI spec chamber. So any custom gunsmith orders a reamer to whatever dimensions they feel will work best. To be honest most custom riflesmiths take liberties with the SAAMI chambers also.

The only way to tell without physically trying the cases is to compare the dimensions of the reamer that was used for your 17 Mach IV with the SAAMI limits for the 17 Fireball.

Jack
 
Thanks all. This infomation will get me to the next step.

Jack; I stopped before I chambered the barrel preferring to wait until I had more data. One of the reasons I never built a 17 M4 was the cost of making cases. Much easier to go with the 17 Rem. I bought a PT&G reamer and have chambered two barrels so far over the past 4 years. I shoot a couple thousand rounds or more a year and accuracy in the 17 Rem barrels seems go away quicker than my hot 22's. I was just about to chamber a 16.5" barrel for an XP action when Rem got involved.

Enjoy
 
The 17 Rem is a definite barrel burner. Right up there with the 22-250 and 243 in my opinion.

For most shooters barrel life is not important because they just don't shoot that much.

What cost of making cases for the 17 mach IV? You run 221 brass through the Mach IV die. One stroke of the arm doesn't seem expensive??????????

Jack
 
Well... it has been debated a lot, but the 17 Fireball IS the MK4.

You will hear that fire cases from one won't fit in the chamber of the other - well fired cases from some of my seven .223s won't fit in the chambers of others - well DUH??? That is not the measure of anything.
That's what FL sizing dies are for.

There are variations in MK4 reamers, and there are variations in .17 Fireball reamers. It's because of manufacturing tolerances, and allowable differences in SAAMI specs - if you read the SAAMI print books, you will understand why fired cases from one 270 won't fit in another 270. Each chamber and case drawing has +/- tolerances.

But the reality is that the two rounds, the MK4 and the 17 Fireball are virtually identical - and new (standard) MK4 cases will fit in a 17 FB chamber, and visa-versa.

At this point in the game... get your rifle chambered for the 17FB and get cases off the shelf.

What will now be the problem with the MK4 is that there are so many variations (some with long necks, etc), that the 17 Fireball will be the new benchmark for the case.

.
 
One last thing that is nice... I mean REALLY NICE!!!

A set of RCBS 17 MK4 loading dies (FL and seat) from Midway is $134.

I just got a set of RCBS .17 Fireball dies from MidwayUSA for $25.

That warms the heart.

And it's the SAME CASE.

DUDES... it's a no brainer!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Guys...I'm learning a lesson a minute. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jack; I was under the impression you needed a set of form dies to get from 221 to 17M4, but not having "donnit", I was looking for the real story. I couldn't see where there was a problem, but experience is the best teacher, mine or others. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

I've been doing this wildcat thing for half a century, have/had several barrel burners, one which didn't last long enough to work up a good load for. I know case forming process well, just not the quickest and easiest for this particular case, which you so kindly provided. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Most of the information I've read on the 17 M4 stated over and over the use of case forming dies. Even the people who sell formed cases indicat a 5 step process, minimum. You, and this forum, are the first that indicated the simpler way. Like me making 22-243 Midd cases from Lapua 308 brass, it takes a mix of several dies to get there. I tried stepping down from 7mm to .243 but lost several case before I used a 6.5mm in between and the 22-243 seating die in between the 243 sizer and the 22-243 sizer. Same with the 6mm-284 I build about 30 years ago. Now it's much simpler...one step from 6.5mm-284. My 6mm-284 barrel is gone so I will step up to the 6.5, that is even easier yet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Catshooter; I fully understand about chamber differences and pretty much all the rest, I just didn't have any cogent information to start with and I've been chasing the net for the past several days looking for "stuff". Not having a SAMMI drawing of either...yet...limits the step-by-step progress. But you are absolutely right and I thank you.

I just received and email from Dave Kiff at PT&G and he has both reamers, also an email from Joel at ReamerRentals that they will order reamers, so with all your help the process is continuing forward. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

My favorite local gunshop got in a 17 FB plus ammo about 2 weeks ago and that started the ball rolling....again. I though I had stuffed the 17 M4 way back in the corner and forgotten about it. Guess not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I have 2 Rem SA receivers waiting for barrels, plus an NEF 17 HMR that will probably be the first experiment. I already set the 17 HMR barrel up on a 223 cal SB2 action so it's nothing but renting a reamer, rechambering and buying dies. If the NEF works out I will build a 16"-18" "walk around" using one of the Rem actions.

Yes, Catshooter, the Midway M4 dies do take a bite out, but I CH4D also has them for $74.50, but you can't beat 25 bucks at all.

Again...Thanks all for your input. I'm pretty much set until ReamerRentals aquires a reamer and I can continue the process.

Enjoy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
Quote:
I have 2 Rem SA receivers waiting for barrels, plus an NEF 17 HMR that will probably be the first experiment. I already set the 17 HMR barrel up on a 223 cal SB2 action so it's nothing but renting a reamer, rechambering and buying dies. If the NEF works out I will build a 16"-18" "walk around" using one of the Rem actions.


Im no machinest. Who does the rework on the extractor to go from rimfire to center fire?
 
NFG...

I know what you mean about case forming on some of these beasts... I got one of the very first 7mmBR XP-100s, and there was NO brass available.

I had to make them from 308 Blank cylindrical cases, and then inside bore the cases half way through - Major YUCKIE-!!

I don't think I would want to go from 221. to 17 FB in one shot by running it through the FL die, I think it begs for a crumpled neck... but that is a guess since I haven't tried it (and won't).

I do have the Redding #1 form die that takes it to 20 cal and sharpens the shoulder to 30 degrees first. Then a quick pass through the 17 Fireball FL die, and poof, you have a case - it would work for either the MK4 or the 17 Fireball.

BUT... When forming the 17 FB from the .221 the cases come up short (1.385"), so I have decided to start with .223 brass and do it the hard way, cuz I want all the neck length I can get because of Remington's loooong throats in their rifles.

I'm not sure that case forming is such a tiresome process.

I have made 17 Fireball from .221 cases which is the standard (two step) way of doing it.

A Redding #1 17 MK4/17 Fireball form die (Redding PN# 90504) brings the case down to 20 cal. It's so easy you don't have to lube the case.

A pass through the RCBS FL die finishes the job.

That's two steps, and these are fine cases.

But they are a bit short at 1.385" - the factory 17 Fireball cases are around 1.415"

Making them from longer cases (223, etc), is a bit more complicated.

Redding has two sets of does... one is for 223 to 221, and the next is .221 to 17 fireball.

But I think that one or more of the dies are redundant.

I have run lubed .223 cases through a RCBS 221 FL die (without the decapper), and you get beautiful 221 cases with a loooong neck - no collapsed or pleated shoulders... and a RCBS FL die is CHEAP!! Not $65...

I would think that the next die will be the #1 form die, then neck turn at 20 cal, and then run through a 17 Fireball FL die, and you are home free (so to speak).

There is a very interesting thread on "Major case trimming" over on saubier.com if you are preparing a lot of cases (I plan to make 1,000+ for a PD trip)... otherwise just crank the hell out of your case trimmer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

That's not too bad.

.
 
ME TOO, CatShooter, on the XP 7mmBR. I tried almost all the cases I could find in that size range i.e., 300 Sav, 308 Win and the other siblings, 22-250, 250 Sav, several x57mm. It was tough but I learned a bunch in that go'round which was more than worth the hassle.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

I can get a 20 VarTag sizer from CH4D for an intermediate step if needed for about 40 bucks including shipping or a form die within the same price range.

Eventually I want to do a 20 Vartag, so whatever I do with the FB/M4 I will make sure it crosses to the 20 VT. It depends on which way I go as to what steps I will go through. Aquisition of SAMMI spec drawings of the cases is in progress also. Right now I'm leaning toward just going with the FB and calling it good. No hassles of any kind in the brass dept. If I decide to go with the 17 M4, buying formed cases at $45/100 will get me going and save bucks. Rather spend money on bullets and powder than form dies tho'. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Crap Shooter; There is no fiddling with rimfire to center fire extractors. I just set up the 17 HMR barrel on a SB2 center fire frame. I had to put a 0.004" shim between the center fire frame where the barrel hooks to the frame pin to close up the excess headspace and slack. Pretty much standard proceedure when playing/swapping NEF barrels. It's not a permanent solution, but it's easy, readily repaired/removed and it works. The factory reams the barrel hook to fit the barrel to your frame when you send one in to have a different caliber barrel installed, if needed, or just swaps barrels around until one is found that headspaces correctly. Totally awesome when you think about it. I will buy another 223 size extractor to fit the 17 cal barrel when I get it rechambered. No hassle, no problem, easy switch, 2 pins to punch out to fit the extractor.

BearTooth Bullets
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/index.htm
has a forum for NEF's if you want more info plus there are several other forums dedicated to the NEF.

NEF has quite a following. I even have 4 and plans for a 38-55 Target barrel plus using one of the 28" barrels and reboring it to 375/06, 375/450M or one of the .411/.416 wildcats, just for something to play with. Don't know if it will ever happen but I've been developing and saving information on the subject. They all shoot very well with a little work here and there, except for the 223, it suffers from an LONG neck so I will just rechamber it out to 222 Mag to see how it responds. If it doesn't it will get a rebore job to something interesting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

I have a 375 H&H barrel coming from ER Shaw to swap into a Sav LA receiver and a load to develop, a 45-70 to 45-90 conversion and two stocks to finish, so by the time I get those projects done all the dust will be settled, the reloading components readily available and the reamer is just a day away. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks again, All, for the information. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Enjoy
 
It certainly does help!!!! And thank you very muchy. Where did you aquire this bit of gold or shouldn't I ask?

Do you know a source for SAMMI drawings? Freebe if possible. I need one for the 17 M4 and 20 VarTag.

I've knocked on several doors but haven't found the right address yet. Joel at Elk Ridge sent me several on the 45-90 conversion that is next up on my todo list. I will try him again, and my Load from a Disk has some dimensions, plus Dave Kiff at PT&G sent me some but I hate to ask him if I don't expect to buy the reamer.

Thanks again. The longest journey starts with a few baby steps and I'm definitely in that stage right now.

Enjoy
 
Todd Kindler should have the 20 VarTag. The 17 M4 has a few different ones. Dave should be able to get you the std. Offer to pay him for the print.
 
Thanks Steve, Dave sent me email copies of the needed drawings. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Everything is falling into place and I've been talking to many knowledgeable people on the Saubier site. I went ahead and ordered a set of 17 FB dies, found the 17 FB reamer at D4 reamers. I have 3 boxs of 17 HMR to shoot up before I start cutting...or...I might just keep the 17 HMR NEF barrel intact and order up a 17 cal barrel...or...cut off the NEF barrel lug and thread/chamber for one of the excess Rem SA's....or... Don't know which or what until I wake up some morning and the wild hairs start working overtime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also decided to forego the 20 VarTag and go with the 204 Rem. Factory ammo and all that. Much easier and quicker to get there from here, plus a little more stroke on the velocity end. Wishing now I had picked up more barrels from Savage Parts before they went away. Would have been a fairly quick conversion to Rem action...no waiting for the barrel to arrive. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

If I'm lucky the pieces will fall into place and still let me get all the shooting in I can stand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks again everyone for your input, it helped immensely. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

'N joy
 


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