I have been reloading for 25 years and have never tried to neck down a case. Now with the 17HH brass and factory loads non existent, I would like to neck down 22 hornet to 17 Hornady hornet. My biggest question is do I just run the 22 through my .17 dies, and then fire form and reload? A little help would be appreciated.
.22 hornet to .17 HH?
- Thread starter stick man
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Furhunter
New member
Read this first.
http://saubier.tempwebpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22639
Then go to google and type in "forming 17 hornet brass" and you will get more reading than you can handle.
In short, no you can't just run 22 hornet brass them your 17HH dies. Hornady wasn't that smart when they developed the cartridge. The HH is shorter than a 22 hornet so it must be trimmed before fire forming.
Its harder to make Hornady Hornet than it is to make Ackley Hornet for that reason.
http://saubier.tempwebpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22639
Then go to google and type in "forming 17 hornet brass" and you will get more reading than you can handle.
In short, no you can't just run 22 hornet brass them your 17HH dies. Hornady wasn't that smart when they developed the cartridge. The HH is shorter than a 22 hornet so it must be trimmed before fire forming.
Its harder to make Hornady Hornet than it is to make Ackley Hornet for that reason.
Originally Posted By: FurhunterRead this first.
http://saubier.tempwebpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22639
Then go to google and type in "forming 17 hornet brass" and you will get more reading than you can handle.
In short, no you can't just run 22 hornet brass them your 17HH dies. Hornady wasn't that smart when they developed the cartridge. The HH is shorter than a 22 hornet so it must be trimmed before fire forming.
Its harder to make Hornady Hornet than it is to make Ackley Hornet for that reason.
Hornady was smart enuf business-wise to change the dimensions enuf that your want to buy brass and dies off of them! That's why the 17 fireball wasn't exactly like the 17 MkIV, etc.
Varmint Al has a good tutorial on his site as to how he does it for the 17 Ackley Hornet - it would be similar for the 17HH. http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Forming_17
Necking to .20 cal, then down to .17 cal seems to work in general, and if you don't have bushing dies, Bulberry did sell a double-ended die to do it with for about $50 shipped - not sure if they still offer it - haven't seen it on the site, but i think if you call, they'll have it. Imperial (I think Redding owns it now) Sizing Wax helps a lot here. Then the brass needs fireformed, but most find and accurate fireforming load, and hunt with it till they have all their brass formed out.
http://saubier.tempwebpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22639
Then go to google and type in "forming 17 hornet brass" and you will get more reading than you can handle.
In short, no you can't just run 22 hornet brass them your 17HH dies. Hornady wasn't that smart when they developed the cartridge. The HH is shorter than a 22 hornet so it must be trimmed before fire forming.
Its harder to make Hornady Hornet than it is to make Ackley Hornet for that reason.
Hornady was smart enuf business-wise to change the dimensions enuf that your want to buy brass and dies off of them! That's why the 17 fireball wasn't exactly like the 17 MkIV, etc.
Varmint Al has a good tutorial on his site as to how he does it for the 17 Ackley Hornet - it would be similar for the 17HH. http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Forming_17
Necking to .20 cal, then down to .17 cal seems to work in general, and if you don't have bushing dies, Bulberry did sell a double-ended die to do it with for about $50 shipped - not sure if they still offer it - haven't seen it on the site, but i think if you call, they'll have it. Imperial (I think Redding owns it now) Sizing Wax helps a lot here. Then the brass needs fireformed, but most find and accurate fireforming load, and hunt with it till they have all their brass formed out.
Blackhawk43
New member
I have formed 17 hornet brass from 22 hornet brass. I first took the seating stem out of a 17 fireball die and ran the brass thru that, bringing it down to 20 caliber, then take the decapping stem out of your full length sizing die, so you don't crunch the case, run your brass thru that and then trim to length, leave them at the need to trim length because they shrink when you fire form them, champher and de-burr then run the expander ball thru them, prime and load with a reduced load and fire form or hunt with them.
Furhunter
New member
Quote: Hornady was smart enuf business-wise to change the dimensions enuf that your want to buy brass and dies off of them! That's why the 17 fireball wasn't exactly like the 17 MkIV, etc.
Is that right?
First.. they had the die sales no matter what.
Secondly, their brass to date kinda sucks anyways.. Example the staked primers in their factory fodder.
Third, They could have done a 17 with a neck shoulder junction the same as the AH. Then they could have sold you 17HH brass or in a pinch they could have sold you 22 hornet brass to neck down with very little effort. The AH shooter could have bought and used that brass as well which means extra sales.. but now they can't supply the brass at all so people are put in the position of having to buy competitors components to build ammo... Its now a loose, loose situation.
They could have sold all that loaded ammo to people who shot both 17HH and the many people out there that shoot the AH. The end result would have them supplying brass and factory ammo to both instead of just one.
Some business wise smart enuf savy lawyer probably advised against it though.
BTW
The reason the 17FB wasnt exactly like the Mach IV is because it based off an already existing case remington had called the 221FB.... Same case different neck, how easy is that!
Is that right?
First.. they had the die sales no matter what.
Secondly, their brass to date kinda sucks anyways.. Example the staked primers in their factory fodder.
Third, They could have done a 17 with a neck shoulder junction the same as the AH. Then they could have sold you 17HH brass or in a pinch they could have sold you 22 hornet brass to neck down with very little effort. The AH shooter could have bought and used that brass as well which means extra sales.. but now they can't supply the brass at all so people are put in the position of having to buy competitors components to build ammo... Its now a loose, loose situation.
They could have sold all that loaded ammo to people who shot both 17HH and the many people out there that shoot the AH. The end result would have them supplying brass and factory ammo to both instead of just one.
Some business wise smart enuf savy lawyer probably advised against it though.
BTW
The reason the 17FB wasnt exactly like the Mach IV is because it based off an already existing case remington had called the 221FB.... Same case different neck, how easy is that!
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Ummm, well if I didn't already have my $200 and some odd Redding special order 17 AH dies I had to buy a few years ago to make my 17 AH work, I could get the 17 HH dies MUCH cheaper and get a factory gun that shoots adequately much cheaper than my Ruger 77 Hornet rebarreled with a Shilen cost, and be making brass from 22 Hornet now and moving on. I'd call that smart business. The performance is basically the same between the calibers, so having a preference is ridiculous. I doubt you'll see many AH's built anymore - the masses will go HH, and the masses are where the $$ are. This is to turn shooters TO the HH, not keep AH shooters happier with cheaper goods. If they mad eit like the AH, folks with those dies, brass, etc. (although a small number of shooters total) would never be buying anything from them in the die/brass line. The brass problem will go away with their next run of brass, I'm sure. Someone REALLY messed up on the first run.
If they built it just like the AH, they wouldn't be selling dies to anyone who had them already. Same with the 17 FB vs 17 MkIV - nobody gets a custom MkIV built anymore. And the MkIV IS based on the 221 Fireball also. MkIV dies are getting hard to find in stock like they used to be, and 17 AH dies are getting clearanced out now.
Take any caliber that wildcatters were successfully using already - 17 AH, 17 MkIV, 22 Varminter, etc., and look at the eventual commercial equivalent - just enough change in dimensions to make you want to just not bother with all the custom costs, fireforming, necking, etc., and just go factory.
If they built it just like the AH, they wouldn't be selling dies to anyone who had them already. Same with the 17 FB vs 17 MkIV - nobody gets a custom MkIV built anymore. And the MkIV IS based on the 221 Fireball also. MkIV dies are getting hard to find in stock like they used to be, and 17 AH dies are getting clearanced out now.
Take any caliber that wildcatters were successfully using already - 17 AH, 17 MkIV, 22 Varminter, etc., and look at the eventual commercial equivalent - just enough change in dimensions to make you want to just not bother with all the custom costs, fireforming, necking, etc., and just go factory.
Furhunter
New member
Originally Posted By: Mike BUmmm, well if I didn't already have my $200 and some odd Redding special order 17 AH dies I had to buy a few years ago to make my 17 AH work, I could get the 17 HH dies MUCH cheaper and get a factory gun that shoots adequately much cheaper than my Ruger 77 Hornet rebarreled with a Shilen cost, and be making brass from 22 Hornet now and moving on. I'd call that smart business.
Ummm, sounds like your pissed about money cause you built an AH before they came out with the HH. You can still make your brass and move on, easier actually.
Too bad you had to special order your dies, mine were off the shelf.
Quote:The performance is basically the same between the calibers, so having a preference is ridiculous.
Actually its not and you should know this. The AH has more case capacity, which means higher velocities are obtainable. The AH also has a sharper shoulder angle and will stretch less but any savy hand loader knows all this right?
oh.. the calibers the same BTW.
Quote:I doubt you'll see many AH's built anymore - the masses will go HH, and the masses are where the $$ are. This is to turn shooters TO the HH, not keep AH shooters happier with cheaper goods. If they mad eit like the AH, folks with those dies, brass, etc.(although a small number of shooters total) would never be buying anything from them in the die/brass line.
Nobodys going to be giving up their AH to shoot HH.
Let me ask this. You dont think if they did make the AH a factory round people would buy dies and brass from them? You dont think people who already shoot the AH need brass? New shooters need dies too. Hornady could make AH dies as easy as HH dies? no???
Quote:
The brass problem will go away with their next run of brass, I'm sure. Someone REALLY messed up on the first run.
The primer pocket issue aside, as a whole.. hornadys brass isnt top shelf, its not even on the middle shelf. When I form brass, the best most common and usually easy to find is Winchester brass.
Quote:If they built it just like the AH, they wouldn't be selling dies to anyone who had them already.
A small number, you said that yourself above.
Quote:Same with the 17 FB vs 17 MkIV - nobody gets a custom MkIV built anymore. And the MkIV IS based on the 221 Fireball also.
I was being facetious with my last statement about the parent cartridge of the 17FB but you missed it.
Do you think Remington cared one bit about die sales when they built the 17FB?
Changing the shoulder dimensions isnt and wasnt their brand. Why would they have the 221 and then bastardize it to a Mach 4 for a sister cartridge?
I really do have to hand it to Hornady though, coming out with the HH was great. I think its wonderful to have a hornet based rifles in 17Cal out there so people can easily punch them out to 17 Ackley Hornet!
Ummm, sounds like your pissed about money cause you built an AH before they came out with the HH. You can still make your brass and move on, easier actually.
Too bad you had to special order your dies, mine were off the shelf.
Quote:The performance is basically the same between the calibers, so having a preference is ridiculous.
Actually its not and you should know this. The AH has more case capacity, which means higher velocities are obtainable. The AH also has a sharper shoulder angle and will stretch less but any savy hand loader knows all this right?
oh.. the calibers the same BTW.
Quote:I doubt you'll see many AH's built anymore - the masses will go HH, and the masses are where the $$ are. This is to turn shooters TO the HH, not keep AH shooters happier with cheaper goods. If they mad eit like the AH, folks with those dies, brass, etc.(although a small number of shooters total) would never be buying anything from them in the die/brass line.
Nobodys going to be giving up their AH to shoot HH.
Let me ask this. You dont think if they did make the AH a factory round people would buy dies and brass from them? You dont think people who already shoot the AH need brass? New shooters need dies too. Hornady could make AH dies as easy as HH dies? no???
Quote:
The brass problem will go away with their next run of brass, I'm sure. Someone REALLY messed up on the first run.
The primer pocket issue aside, as a whole.. hornadys brass isnt top shelf, its not even on the middle shelf. When I form brass, the best most common and usually easy to find is Winchester brass.
Quote:If they built it just like the AH, they wouldn't be selling dies to anyone who had them already.
A small number, you said that yourself above.
Quote:Same with the 17 FB vs 17 MkIV - nobody gets a custom MkIV built anymore. And the MkIV IS based on the 221 Fireball also.
I was being facetious with my last statement about the parent cartridge of the 17FB but you missed it.
Do you think Remington cared one bit about die sales when they built the 17FB?
Changing the shoulder dimensions isnt and wasnt their brand. Why would they have the 221 and then bastardize it to a Mach 4 for a sister cartridge?
I really do have to hand it to Hornady though, coming out with the HH was great. I think its wonderful to have a hornet based rifles in 17Cal out there so people can easily punch them out to 17 Ackley Hornet!