223 Ackley Improved

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panhandlepr

New member
Last spring I bought a new Remington VLS in 223 Rem. The accracy is not up to what I had excepted. So I ordered a Hart
stainless barrel and got to wondering about the 223 Ackley chambering and if it was worth the trouble. Is there enough gain to make it worth while and are there any other benifits or drawbacks to this conversion? Anyone out there have any experience with this cartridge? Thanks

Panhandlepr
 
I like the 223ack., I have one. But if I had to doing all over again, I would have gone with a 22BR, it may cost $40 more to open up the bolt face, but you can push 50g & 52g bullets to 22-250 like performance with much better accuracy potential, BR only use 2/3 of the powder and 5x of the barrel life, since there is no need to fire form the BR brass, it actually cost less to shoot. BTW, both loading dies are the same price.
 
I have a 223 ackley and I really like it. Think of it as a 223 on steroids.

I would choose it way over any of the other 22 wildcats. Brass is everywhere, powder charge is still minute compared to most AND you can still shoot factory stuff in it.

As far as velocity goes, more is always a good thing, but theres more advantage to the ackley than just a boost in numbers.
BTW theres no such thing as "accuracy potential". There are summations and ideas, but when you boil it all down it has very little to do with any given cartridge
 
I have a .223 AI built by master riflesmith Darrell Holland. It is a work of art, and shoots like a dream. As far as accuracy, it is probably no more accurate than if I would have had him build me a .223.

If you are not familiar with Ackley Improved chamberings, be aware you have to fireform you brass one time to get the most out of your Ackley Improved rifle. Brass lasts longer, and they say AIs are easier on they rifle due to less bolt thrust. You have to be a handloader of course, or owning any AI rifle is a waste of time and money.

I have four AI rifles, including a 22.250AI, 257 Roberts AI,and a .280AI. I enjoy handloading for them and the fact they are unique, something different, not just like every other rifle out there.

If you get a 223AI, be sure and try H335 powder.

Here is the thread.
 
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The first time I rebarreled a .223 Rem, my smith suggested I give the AI a try, and I thought long and hard about it.

I finally decided against it. I pdog hunt an average of 40-50 days a year, often going out for 2 days at a time. This requires that I have 1000 rounds on hand. When it hit me that I'd use up about 15% of my barrel life just fire-forming cases, I decided not to go with the Ackley chambering. I even considered buying a used NEF in .223 and having it chambered with the same reamer just to use for fireforming, but figured for the extra 200 fps or so I'd gain, I could just pick up the 6mm when the need arose.

Except for that minor detail, I'd love to have one.

Mike
 
Linefinder,
You do not need to waste barrel life fire-forming. Fire-forming loads can be used quite effectively stopping beating hearts. All my AIs had fire-forming loads quite accurate enough to be used on target.

Of course all AI chambers will have less barrel life than the parent chamber. There is no way getting away from the fact that the more powder burnt, the shorter the barrel life. All the more reason to use fire-forming loads on target.

Jack
 
Linefinder, you cannot chamber an Ackley cartridge correctly by starting with a 223 chamber. The Ackley cases end up about .004" shorter than the parent case. You would have to set the barrel back. Not an easy task on a NE Handi.

I shoot a 223 with a 35 degree shoulder that was Homer Culvers' improved. It has been one of the best varmint rounds I've ever used. Every one, that I have built, has excelled with H4198.
 
Thanks, Jack & Eddie, for the AI info.

It had completely escaped me that with the steeper shoulder the AI case would finish out shorter than the parent case. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

What is the average velocity (ballpark, of course) of the .223 AI with 55 grain bullets?

I ask, because with the factory barrel on my Win 70 Heavy Varmint I was averaging 2965 fps with Varget and molied VMaxes. I could get a little more speed, but the accuracy dropped off. When I rebarreled, I used a Lilja 3-groove SST barrel. With the exact same load recipe,(except I changed to naked bullets, which IME increases velocity in the .223 round by about 125 fps) my velocity went to 3260 fps and the accuracy was a little better. Even taking into account the change to naked bullets would increase velocity to around 3100 fps, I still wound up with over 150 fps more than I expected.

I'm thinking the barrel switch and changing to naked bullets put this rifle within spitting distance of the AI version anyway.

Am I right?

Mike
 
the increase in MV is due to the far better internal polish and tighter land and groove dimensions of the match grade tube. I find Match tubes to increase MV quite well,..and the 3 groove barrel was a good choice. I have a 4 groove in 6.5x55AI that is quite possibly the most accurate long range rifle I have.

The best thing about the AI is the ability to shoot the accuracy load while forming new brass. I get very similar results on paper with either the formed or unformed brass,...in fact, I have learned that with any new AI chambering I get,.I can effectively run the load ladder WHILE forming brass. The barrel life issue is a mute point,.,..and most often trumpeted by the anti Ackley crowd who have very little if any experience in the AI dept. The majority of them dismissed it on theory and never actually went out and fired one.

also,...if you pony-up for Lapua brass or RWS, Norma, etc,...the reduced stretch and trimming is a great advantage.
 
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BTW theres no such thing as "accuracy potential". There are summations and ideas, but when you boil it all down it has very little to do with any given cartridge



Wow, you sound like an real expert, maybe we all can learn something from you. So, in your theory the
the 9mm Luger is equally as accurate as the .223 and a 6ppc has no advantage over the 22LR, all these BR chambers is just a meth, is that right ?
 
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Quote:
BTW theres no such thing as "accuracy potential". There are summations and ideas, but when you boil it all down it has very little to do with any given cartridge



Wow, you sound like an real expert, maybe we all can learn something from you. So, in your theory the
the 9mm Luger is equally as accurate as the .223 and a 6ppc has no advantage over the 22LR, all these BR chambers is just a meth, is that right ?



You mean "myth", right??? If you want to be smart aleck about it, that is fine. But facts are facts. It is far more important to have good case prep, spot on reloading techniques and a well put together rifle than it is to mull over what cartridge has more "accuracy potential".
To argue otherwise, one might conclude that you are on "meth".
 
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BTW theres no such thing as "accuracy potential". There are summations and ideas, but when you boil it all down it has very little to do with any given cartridge



That's the reason for the scores of different calibers winning in BR?
 
If its not cut right there could literally be slop and play in regards to the cartridge and the chamber, and you might get inconsistant ignition, or none at all.

If that were the case, you might be able to set headspace by setting the COL so that the bullet is touching into the lands and use this to set headspace, and while thats not exactly according to hoyle it works.

If it is a competent gunsmith doin the work, he would remove the barrel, set it back the alotted amount and cut the new chamber correctly.
If this is the case, just shoot whatever loads you need to in it and go. As stated above, factory 223 can be shot with considerable accuracy so there is really no use in fireforming just for the sake of fireforming. I use good old winchester 45grain white box ammo and have excellent results.
 
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If the chamber is not setup with .004 reduction in depth, what is the best way to fireform cases and what powder charge do you recomemd?




Here's a way to do exactly what you asked. Starting with new 223 brass. Remove the de capping and expander spindle from the full length resize die. Run test lot of the brass thru this die. Then reinstall the spindle and carefully readjust the die itself up/out of the press, until the expander ball just enters the mouth of the case, about .075". Now load them up with a 1-2 grains under a maximum charge of your favorite powder. Use a 55-60 grain bullet so it will be long enough to contact the lands and hold the case in place thru the primer strike.
 
If the chamber does NOT have the .004" "set-back",..then it is NOT a correctly done job. If the gunsmith was sloppy enough to have done it this way,...I would RUN away from that rifle as fast as humanly possible. It may sound menial,..but if he didn't do that part right,..what else did he skimp on or other corners did he cut? remember,..55k psi in front of your face needs to be respected. If the bolt does not close STIFF on a new case in the ackely (supposedly) chamber,..then it ain't right!!!

If you for some reson still wanted the rifle, then I would suggest a 75gr pill jammed hard into the lands with a medium charge of a fast powder for that weight bullet. The bullet into the lands will force the casehead back against the boltface and will cause the brass flow needed for body expansion to come back from the neck (as it should be) and not foreward from the case-head which can cause premature casehead seperations and subsequent trips to the Dr or ER for you.

I stand by the first suggestion, if the chamber isn't correct, make it that way or skip it all together.
 
You can also just lightly oil the cases. This allows the case to slide back against the bolt and blow the shoulder out to the right length. If you don't oil the cases they will stick to the chamber wall and stretch just in front of the web.

Some people think oiling cases is a no-no but it is perfectly safe. No modern firearms depend on any case wall friction. They are all designed for the bolt to safely handle over 100% of all backthrust.

Jack
 
Hi Jack...

I spoke to a Remington engineer (Dietz) some years back about the true strength of the 700 action, and he said that they are strong enough to hold back 100,000 pounds of force without damage - now, I don't mean PSI, I mean real pounds, like 20 tons of force! As you know, it is the case that fails.

I crack up every time I hear some "expert" rant about "bolt thrust" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 


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