223 Flat Primer

S

shelton573

Active member
I am currently working up a load for my 223 using 53 gr vmax over H4895. According to Hodgdons load data, starting load is 25 gr and max is 27. I am currently at 25.5 gr which is nearly a compressed load in the LC brass I am using. The first group I shot with it shot right at .8" and the second group shot .636" group. The primers are starting to flatten slightly and was just curious if anyone else has used H4895 and had this problem close to the starting load? I have read that over sizing can cause this too. There are no other signs of high pressure. Should I try a different primer or maybe start over with the new in the bag winchester brass I have? Any info would be much appreciated. Thanks!
 
Back your resizing die out just a tad, and your flattened primers will go away. Flattened primers like you describe, are caused by too much headspace, caused by a resizing die pushing the shoulder of the case back too far. Unless you are getting cratered primers, extractor marks, or a sticky bolt lift, I wouldn't worry. Many AR shooters get this, and it really doesn't hurt anything.
 
Pics would go a long way .....

Once again, we can see differences in loading data from different sources. Hodgdon shows (as you said) 27.0 as a max load. Nosler shows 25.5 as max. Sierra shows 25.6 as max.

You can see that there is definitely a difference of "opinions" on the data. The above post is correct (kinda) in the fact that you may be seeing headspace causes, but that's not an absolute. I haven't loaded 4895 in any .223s so I can't attest to the load you are shooting, and in my opinion it is a poor choice unless you're trying to use up a stock of powder. Some will scoff at this, but some NATO brass has less internal capacity than commercial offerings. I've seen it in person. But once again, I can't say in your case without having hands on.

Is 4895 the only powder you have? I'd much prefer Benchmark or even H335.

Are you intent on using it? If so, you might want to back it off a bit.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to load 4-5 rounds in the Winchester brass you mentioned and see if the primers look similar.

Which primers are you using? Some brands/models are softer than others and will show signs more quickly than others. CCI BR4 primers probably have one of the toughest cups.
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesBack your resizing die out just a tad, and your flattened primers will go away. Flattened primers like you describe, are caused by too much headspace, caused by a resizing die pushing the shoulder of the case back too far. Unless you are getting cratered primers, extractor marks, or a sticky bolt lift, I wouldn't worry. Many AR shooters get this, and it really doesn't hurt anything.

Thanks for the reply! I did FL size this brass as not all was shot out of my savage. The next go around I am just going to neck size. No other signs you mentioned were present.

Shelton
 
Originally Posted By: HidalgoPics would go a long way .....

Once again, we can see differences in loading data from different sources. Hodgdon shows (as you said) 27.0 as a max load. Nosler shows 25.5 as max. Sierra shows 25.6 as max.

You can see that there is definitely a difference of "opinions" on the data. The above post is correct (kinda) in the fact that you may be seeing headspace causes, but that's not an absolute. I haven't loaded 4895 in any .223s so I can't attest to the load you are shooting, and in my opinion it is a poor choice unless you're trying to use up a stock of powder. Some will scoff at this, but some NATO brass has less internal capacity than commercial offerings. I've seen it in person. But once again, I can't say in your case without having hands on.

Is 4895 the only powder you have? I'd much prefer Benchmark or even H335.

Are you intent on using it? If so, you might want to back it off a bit.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to load 4-5 rounds in the Winchester brass you mentioned and see if the primers look similar.

Which primers are you using? Some brands/models are softer than others and will show signs more quickly than others. CCI BR4 primers probably have one of the toughest cups.

Thanks for the reply hidalgo! I am working with the h4895 because out of it and h335 it showed the most promise with the 53 gr vmax. The 335 looked like shotgun patterns out of my rifle. Benchmark will be the next powder that I am going to try as soon as I can get to scheels. I am not set on using h4895, it's just the powder that showed the best results at the time. I will load a pic tomorrow when I can get around my work computer. I am using winchester primers currently. Thanks for the help and will try to update with a pic in the morning.
 
Typically 335 is the ticket in 223. I like 4895 but man I don't like metering the stuff. What is your c.o.a.l.? Also LC brass often weighs more than commercial brass promoting more pressure due to less case volume. What primer?
 
I have loaded 26.0 grains of H4895 with a 55 grain Nosler, and Hornady V-Max for many years. I also load 26.0 grains of IMR-4895 with the 55 grain Nosler. If you load them with a Federal 205 primer, this near max load works best. This combo has worked well in over 10 different .223 rifles. I've several friends that were having trouble finding something that would work in all their .223 rifles, this is it! I can't overstress this, use the Federal 205 primer!
 
Old wives tale... Lake City 5.56 is NOT thicker, never was. Some commercial is actually thicker. Honestly, there's hardly any difference, in all .223-5.56 brass.

I guess it's been more than two weeks!

Where does this stuff keep coming from?
 
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Thanks for the replies! The c.o.a.l. Is at 2.340 with the 53 gr. vmax. I will prolly pick up some different primers to try when I go powder shopping.

Shelton
 
Originally Posted By: shelton573Thanks for the replies! The c.o.a.l. Is at 2.340 with the 53 gr. vmax. I will prolly pick up some different primers to try when I go powder shopping.

Shelton

Are you running 2.340 in an AR rifle? Those won't (reliably) feed through my mags.

EDIT ...... I'm a little slow tonite .... just read where you said Savage.
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Sorry 'bout that.
 
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I stand corrected ninehorses. I just went into my reloading room and found LC*11 to be toward the bottom of the case weight scale and toward the top on capacity. It was 2.5 grains heavier than all my R_P cases. I am generally limited to 2.24" for AR mags so Ive never been near the coal to comment. I do use Fed 205 and CCI 41 though.
 
Originally Posted By: HidalgoOriginally Posted By: shelton573Thanks for the replies! The c.o.a.l. Is at 2.340 with the 53 gr. vmax. I will prolly pick up some different primers to try when I go powder shopping.

Shelton

Are you running 2.340 in an AR rifle? Those won't (reliably) feed through my mags.

EDIT ...... I'm a little slow tonite .... just read where you said Savage.
rolleyes.gif
blushing.gif
Sorry 'bout that.

Haha not a problem! The reason things were left out of my original post like rifle, COAL, and primer type is because my phone decided it wouldn't post the first time and I had to rewrite it. The COAL is pushing it in my savage DBM, feeds good it just barely clears the front of the mag.

Shelton
 
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Here is a picture of the flattened primer compared to a freshly primed case. Could be normal but didn't look like that before. And like I said before, there were no other signs of pressure. Hope this helps!

Shelton
 
Looks like you may have gotten a bit happy with your chamfer tool when removing the primer pocket crimp. If you have any cases that still have the crimp, try just chamfering a little bit, then see if a primer seats easily. If it does, do a few more the same way and load them up to try. If they do not want to go remove a little more material until they do.
 
Looks like a headspace issue, and your chamferng is a bit deep.

H4895 is my go to powder in 223 for all bullets over 60 grains, for the 53's Benchmark for me.
 
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Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorLooks like you may have gotten a bit happy with your chamfer tool when removing the primer pocket crimp. If you have any cases that still have the crimp, try just chamfering a little bit, then see if a primer seats easily. If it does, do a few more the same way and load them up to try. If they do not want to go remove a little more material until they do.

Thanks for the reply! I didn't remove the crimp from this brass, I just sized/deprimed and cleaned the primer pocket. Crimp was removed when remanufactured I assume.

Shelton
 
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Originally Posted By: shelton573Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorLooks like you may have gotten a bit happy with your chamfer tool when removing the primer pocket crimp. If you have any cases that still have the crimp, try just chamfering a little bit, then see if a primer seats easily. If it does, do a few more the same way and load them up to try. If they do not want to go remove a little more material until they do.

Thanks for the reply! I didn't remove the crimp from this brass, I just sized/deprimed and cleaned the primer pocket. Crimp was removed when remanufactured I assume.

Shelton

If I were to take a guess...Ultramax ammo???

I have quite a bit of brass from their remanufactured stuff and some if not most have a deep chamfer. Sometimes I get a flat looking primer, other times it doesn't bother. I don't think you have anything to worry about with your current load. It doesn't appear to have any cratering nor does it look like the primer is backing out of the pocket.

Id say, if the load is working for you...continue to load them and hang fur!
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Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorOriginally Posted By: shelton573Originally Posted By: midwestpredatorLooks like you may have gotten a bit happy with your chamfer tool when removing the primer pocket crimp. If you have any cases that still have the crimp, try just chamfering a little bit, then see if a primer seats easily. If it does, do a few more the same way and load them up to try. If they do not want to go remove a little more material until they do.

Thanks for the reply! I didn't remove the crimp from this brass, I just sized/deprimed and cleaned the primer pocket. Crimp was removed when remanufactured I assume.

Shelton

If I were to take a guess...Ultramax ammo???

I have quite a bit of brass from their remanufactured stuff and some if not most have a deep chamfer. Sometimes I get a flat looking primer, other times it doesn't bother. I don't think you have anything to worry about with your current load. It doesn't appear to have any cratering nor does it look like the primer is backing out of the pocket.

Id say, if the load is working for you...continue to load them and hang fur!
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Ding ding you are correct lol! I didn't know they had primer pocket issues! The load is working ok so far but might do like hidalgo suggested and try it in the new win brass just for the heck of it.

Shelton
 
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You'll see a difference if you load the Win brass. But not because of pressures. It's the pockets reamed too much and letting the primer rebound a bit as was said above. You should be good to go.
 


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