243 WSSM vs 25 WSSM an apples to apples comparison.

[ricky_arthur]

I have read several times the confusing idea that because of the better BC of .243 bullets the 243 wssm was hands down better than the 25 wssm. It was always followed by a confusing comparison of different weight bullets or bullets that require you to jump through hoops to use.

It caught my eye because it was contrary to any of the data I had found during researching my Dtech build. The 25wssm's greater capacity (about 2 grains) should put it neck and neck with the smaller .243

I finally had a moment to sit down and plug in actual numbers into a Ballistics Calculator.

I used Vortex Optics Long Range Ballistic Calculator, because it is one I have access to.

For the comparison I chose the 100gr Nosler Partition.

I chose that bullet for this comparison for the following reasons.

1. Mike at Dtech recommended that specific bullet as one that consistantly shoots well in his uppers and performs well on big game (my intended use for the upper)and so it is one I will be using.
2. That exact bullet is available in 100 grains for both calibers so a true apples to apples comparison was possible.
3. it requires no magazine modifications, and no grinding on the upper or feedramps to shoot, so it is a bullet that anyone can load and shoot without jumping through hoops..

Velocity was published Data Max Loads.
All other parameters were set the same for both loads.
6500 altitude (cause thats what it is where I live and hunt.)
50 deg
10mph wind at 3 oclock ( to compare wind drift).
Sighted in at 200 yards

The .257 Nosler partition has a BC of .377
the .243 Nosler partition has a BC of .384 (is that enough to make it a better long range cartridge??) That is what I wanted to find out.

Here is the data, I was hoping to copy and paste it all, but the program wouldn't allow it, so I will have to type it out long hand.

All numbers will follow this pattern, Distance...Drop...Drift...Velocity...and Energy

A 100gr NOS Partition .243 WSSM starts at 3150fps

100 yards +1.1, .6, 2797, 1737
200 0.0, 2.5, 2606, 1508
300 -5.7, 5.6, 2423, 1303
400 -16.8, 10.2, 2247, 1121
500 -34.1, 16.6, 2078, 959
600 -58.5, 24.8, 1917, 816
700 -91.4, 35.1, 1764, 691
800 -134.2, 47.7, 1621, 583
900 -188.6, 62.9, 1488, 491
1000 -256.9, 80.9, 1367, 415
1500 -909.5, 218.0, 994, 219


A 100gr NOS Partition .25WSSM starts at 3291 (there is published data that has it over 3300 but I chose to use the same source the .243 data came from)

100 yards +1., .6, 3073, 2404
200 0.0, 2.3, 2866, 1824
300 -5.2, 5.4, 2668, 1581
400 -15.3, 9.9, 2479, 1365
500 -31.0, 15.9, 2298, 1172
600 -53.4, 23.8, 2124, 1001
700 -83.5, 33.7, 1958, 851
800 -122.6, 48.5, 1800, 719
900 -172.5, 60.3, 1651, 605
1000 -235.2, 77.7, 1513, 509
1500 -839.1,212.0, 1046, 243

There is statistically a point where the higher BC of the .243 bullet catches up to the lowly 25wssm...its at about 2000 yards.

My conclusion?? is that both the .243 and the 25 WSSM cartridges are pretty versitile and either one is a fantastic all around Deer on down cartridge... but the 243 doesn't beat the 25 by any honest measure I can find.

 

[mbkmkk]

Wow, looks like this is a big issue for you and has been bothering you.

Who shoots that Junk bullet (100gr Nosler Partition) at 1000 yards?

The truth is, The 25 bullet options are not very good so the comparison should be about available bullet options.

The most interesting thing is that you start with a so-called equal comparison, but you state that the 25WSSM case has more capacity, so the 243 WSSM case technically, is at a disadvantage, now is that apple-to-apple?

Bottom line is, if the 25 brings its best apple for long distance accuracy and compares it to the 243’s best apple for long distance accuracy…...well I guess the Bench rest competitors show us what they use for long distance..…and it is not a .257 diameter bullet.

If modifications bother you then do not do them but last time I checked if no one modified anything we would all be shooting .223…….

I am glad you have convinced yourself.....so stop worrying about others and just go buy and shoot your 25 WSSM!

 

[ricky_arthur]

Lol. I take it you have a 243 wssm and a chopped up magazine laying about.

There is no doubt that the 243 wins the bullet selection aspect, I simply wanted an equal comparison so I chose a bullet available for both. Granted the list of hunting bullets what they are both available in identical weights was short.

You miss the point with the 1000 yard comment. No one would choose either cartridge for 1000 yard shooting, unless it's just plinking. I was simply laying the numbers out far enough to illustrate that the results held true even beyond usefully range.

Truth is, there is barely a whiskers difference between the two, especially at useful hunting distance. Unless you want to take a grinder to your upper and magazine and cram a bullet too long for practical use into the mix and then there still isn't a whiskers difference between the two. Lol
Or to put it in simpler terms. If we both sat on a canyon rim and 400 yards away a nice buck stepped out. He is in trouble wether I send a "junky" 257 bullet or you send a sleek .243 from a mangled magazine.
My hold over for the shot is 15.3 Yours, even with a 115gr VLD bullet with a BC of .545

(and assuming you can drive that bullet up to 2900fps)would be 18.5 according to the same ballistics program. So I'm still not seeing the advantage?? Just me I guess.

It's always possible that the ballistics program I used would be proven inaccurate by a better program but it's what I have.

Someone else feel free to check my results.

 

[mbkmkk]

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurLol. I take it you have a 243 WSSM and a chopped up magazine laying about.
Ricky, last time I checked everyone that has a WSSM Upper has a 223 magazine that has been “chopped” so the WSSM case will work. Did you know that Mike at D-Tech does this modification? So, the fact that someone wants to do some more cutting on the front of their magazine is there choice. I love how you put a dirty word on something you clearly do not want to do, to justify it in your head that it is bad……Its called modification and every industry does it.
Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurThere is no doubt that the 243 wins the bullet selection aspect, I simply wanted an equal comparison so I chose a bullet available for both. Granted the list of hunting bullets what they are both available in identical weights was short.
Yes, the comparison is not even fair. The 243 is hands down the leader in this area.
Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurYou miss the point with the 1000 yard comment. No one would choose either caliber for 1000 yard shooting, unless it's just plinking. I was simply laying the numbers out far enough to illustrate that the results held true even beyond usefully range.
Well actually, the 243 would be picked before the 25 because of the high BC bullets; again, we see this in competitors shooting 6mm calibers all the time.

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurTruth is, there is barely a whiskers difference between the two, especially at useful hunting distance. Unless you want to take a grinder to your upper and magazine and cram a bullet too long for practical use into the mix and then there still isn't a whiskers difference between the two. Lol
Actually there is .013 difference in bullet diameter and 2 grains of case capacity.

Who grinds their Upper????? What the…..

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthur Or to put it in simpler terms. If we both sat on a canyon rim and 400 yards away a nice buck stepped out. He is in trouble wether I send a "junky" 257 bullet or you send a sleek .243 from a mangled magazine.
What is interesting here is, you are only concerned with my magazine (but probably never seen my magazine) and not you poor bullet….I do not know if I could sleep at night knowing you are so worried.

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthur My hold over for the shot is 15.3 Yours, even with a 115gr VLD bullet with a BC of .545

(and assuming you can drive that bullet up to 2900fps)would be 18.5 according to the same ballistics program. So I'm still not seeing the advantage?? Just me I guess.
It is you Ricky, because this is your Ballistic Program, your Convincing, and your choice of Bullets that were used. Can you say Manipulation……

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurIt's always possible that the ballistics program I used would be proven inaccurate by a better program but it's what I have.
I can see that. The program is called Quick Loads…..but it to can be manipulated.
Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurSomeone else feel free to check my results.
No, I am just going to keep chopping up my magazines because only us 243 guys do this and stand back and hope you, with your 25WSSM will let us come out and play.
By the Way, I have a 6.5 WSSM that does not use Modified magazines, you want to manipulate your program so you can convince me that the 25 bets it too?????

Just go shoot your gun Ricky……Its the real world. Good luck and good shooting, Ricky.

 

[ricky_arthur]

Wow, You typed alot of words without a single data point or fact to disprove the findings. I gave every bit of information needed for my data to be checked and if there was any manipulation it was giving the .243 the benefit so that it could not be said I had Messed around untill I got the results I wanted. That was not the case. In fact, I ran the numbers for the .243 wssm at least 4 times and in EVERY case it came out behind, AND the numbers I posted were the BEST results I could come up with for the .243. As a matter of fact I had to edit and retype all the info after I had posted because I was able to find load data that gave the 243 about 100 fps more than the original data had stated, as you can see it made no difference in the outcome. I actually fully expected when I plugged in the VLD bullet last night to see it pull ahead and was suprised when It did not.

Come back when you have some data, because it's you that acts butt hurt over the results.

Perhaps you wouldn't take it so personal if I changed the title to..."Does more speed trump higher BC at hunting distances"
Then you wouldn't feel like I had slighted your Cartridge. That was not my intent I was merely checking information that has been posted on this forum several times that did not make sense.

Good day.

Is there anyone NOT emotionally attached that can plug in the numbers and provide back up or refuting datum?

Remember apples to apples means that every variable possible stays the same. ie bullet weight, wind etc.
It does not mean that non variables have to be the same. ie case capacity. or even BC if you want, It is what it is.

 

[mbkmkk]

Ricky, I was just board and had nothing better to do, so I thought would respond.

I am not going to play the numbers game with you, clearly you are a superior intellect. You have the data and it makes you feel better and that is all that matters. I run numbers also, and my 243 numbers make me feel better.

So its all good.

Pound your chest because you are right and you WIN!

I am so butt hurt and emotional distraught that I am going to go sell all of my 243WSSM stuff and wait for you to direct me to the next great caliber.

 

[ricky_arthur]

Actually why don't you enthral me with your acumen. I actually want to know the results other may get.

 

[Jeff Mock]

I think this thread is taking a sharp turn and is possibly headed for the cliff.

Lighten up a little fellers...

 

[ColoradoOsprey]

I don't think it is a true apples to apples comparison because you are shooting a 25 cal in a light for caliber bullet and a 6mm in a heavy for caliber bullet.

Ballisticly it shows the 25 cal at it's finest for velocity and the 6mm at it poorest.

For a true comparison it should be a common weight for caliber bullet like a 120 grain 25 cal and a 80 grain in the 6mm.
Your result will be significantly different.'

Using the same parent case energy is always going to go toward the higher caliber. Bullet velocity and trajectory will go to the smaller caliber.

Point being, they are both great rounds. Each suited to a particular role. The 243WSSM from 55 grain bullets to 107 grain match bullets is far more versatile due to bullet availability. The 25WSSM get the nod for larger game. If hunting large game is a priority the 25 is a great caliber.

 

[knockemdown]

Interesting comparisons, Ricky.
But I do agree that 'apples to apples' might not the best way of describing your data.
Also, if we are speaking strictly within the context of the AR-15 platform, it might be advantageous to keep in mind the 'standard' magazine c.o.a.l. limitation of 2.260"...

The reason I say that is that a 100gr bullet in .243 caliber is considerably longer than the same weight bullet in .257". To the extent that a 100gr in .243WSSM has to be seated deep in the case, thereby infringing upon usable powder capacity. And depending on the bullet, possibly so deep that the ogive of the bullet is darn close, or even below the case neck, NOT GOOD.
So, based on the 100grainers, the .25WSSM has an obvious advantage. I feel that a 100gr from a .243WSSM is TOO heavy for that cartridge, and I'd personally not bother with anything heavier than an 87gr Vmax from one. If that 87Vmax bullet won't perform to your liking at distance in the .243Wizzer, then there will be no pleasing you!

As a more 'fair' comparison between the two, may I suggest you compare the 75gr Vmax in both cartridges?
Either offering can be loaded to mag length with plenty of room left for powder capacity. Might be more of a closely contested 'battle', for conversation at least...

 

[dtech]

Admittedly, I have not read this thread word for word, but from what I have gathered, there is a comparison being made between the .243 and .25 WSSM's.

Using the same grain-weight bullet in both does not tell you much other than the same pressure applied to the larger .25 cal. slug is going to give you more velocity/energy.

I'm not sure what everyone is after here, but when I make a comparison involving similar cases with different bore diameters, I derive the difference in bore volumes and use it as a factor in the comparison.

The rough bore area of a .257 is .0218747 square inches. The rough bore area of a .243 is . 0463769 square inches. That gives you a factor of .894 or 1.1185 depending on what direction you are going. If you take an 87 grain .243 bullet and multiplied the 87 by 1.1185 you would come up with a bullet that would weight a little over 97 grains for the .257 bullet. Comparing those two bullets should be a comparison that will give you more useful data.

 

[mbkmkk]

Originally Posted By: knockemdown I feel that a 100gr from a .243WSSM is TOO heavy for that cartridge, and I'd personally not bother with anything heavier than an 87gr Vmax from one.
Knockem

Why would the 100gr bullet be too heavy? How are you basing this concept, that 87grs is better then 100grs in a 243 WSSM?

Thanks

 

[mbkmkk]

Originally Posted By: DtechAdmittedly, I have not read this thread word for word, but from what I have gathered, there is a comparison being made between the .243 and .25 WSSM's.
That would have been a good conversation until this stuff was thrown out there about 243 WSSM users that choose to step out of the 2.260 Box and use larger bullets.

“jump through hoops to use”

“chopped up magazine laying about”

grinder to your upper and magazine and cram a bullet too long for practical use”

Things tend to go down hill when you make negative comments towards a clear opposition.

 

[knockemdown]

Originally Posted By: mbkmkkOriginally Posted By: knockemdown I feel that a 100gr from a .243WSSM is TOO heavy for that cartridge, and I'd personally not bother with anything heavier than an 87gr Vmax from one.
Knockem

Why would the 100gr bullet be too heavy? How are you basing this concept, that 87grs is better then 100grs in a 243 WSSM?

Thanks

I stated why above.
For one, a .243 caliber 100gr bullet is loooong and will need to be seated quite deep into a 243WSSM case to run from a magazine @ 2.260" coal. That means there is LESS room for powder in the case, 'cause the boolit is occupying it...
Secondly, for the reason Mike just stated. It is not a 'fair' comparison, between the .243 and .25 WSSMS to use 100grainers as a baseline.

As far as 'long range' ballistics goes, I'd pick the 87gr Vmax simply because it is physically short enough to be seated efficiently at mag length and still leave enough room in the case for powder to push it hard. And their b.c. is respectable enough that when you compare it to a heavier .243 offering pushed slower, it will beat them handily (when loaded at 2.260" mag length)
I never said it the 87gr Vmax was "better", but it would certainly be more of an efficient use of a .243WSSM cartridge from an AR-15.

If I wanted to kill big game with a .243WSSM, I'd load an 85gr TSX and be done with it. I wouldn't bother trying to stuff a 100grainer down that neck...

These are just my opinions (worth nothing), so don't let them sway you one way, or the next. I know I've tried some wacky boolit/case combos myself!
So if you've found something that works for you, by all means ROCK ON...

 

[mbkmkk]

Ok, if I was going to live with the 2.260 OAL that would make sense.

I am using 105 bullets out of an AR and a 2.315 to 2.360 OAL with no problems so case capacity is not an issue, and it is not shoved down the neck.

 

[ricky_arthur]

So your problem is with the semantics? I'm sorry I was using terms that I deemed descriptively accurate. I suppose that the word junky to describe the bullet I was using was just unbiased observation. LOL Oh well.

To everyone else thanks for the input. Mike I will run more numbers with those things in mind.

While I can see the point of picking component for each caliber at it's best, I thought it was more helpful to use a bullet I would be actually using for the intended use of the rifle and that is why I chose what I chose. I further thought it was more likely that others would choose the same bullet for their own use and that it would be beneficial to see the information.

The fact that we seem to be splitting hairs to reach a conlusion would lend more evidence to my repeatedly stated opinion that both the .243 wssm and .25 wssm are fantastic and versitile Cartridges for the AR platform. If I wasn't looking within the AR platform perameters I probably wouldn't bother with either.

I'll run more numbers as soon as I have a moment. Thaks everyone.

MBKMKK,I apologize, but have to admit that I think we were both having fun.

 

[knockemdown]

Originally Posted By: mbkmkkOk, if I was going to live with the 2.260 OAL that would make sense.

I am using 105 bullets out of an AR and a 2.315 to 2.360 OAL with no problems so case capacity is not an issue, and it is not shoved down the neck.

Wow, that is long! 105 Amaxs?
Does your magazine still have 4 sides to it? (juuuust kiddin'!!!)
Can you get 3K with them accurately out of your AR-15?
What barrel length & twist is it?

I ran some numbers with an 87gr Vmax @ 3250 and a 105gr Amax @ 3000. These velocity #s are a safe guesstimate.
Based on those #s, the 87s shoot flatter than the 105s from the muzzle, all the way out to 900 yds!
AND they stay within 1 MOA of wind the whole way. So effectively, the 105 ain't buyin' a Wizzer shooter anything in elevation and barely enough wind to justify the effort to make 'em cycle reliably, or without a Dremel tool

Even if I were a little off with the speeds and the 105s did edge out the 87s, it would still be negligable. And, it'd take those 105s several hundred yards to 'catch & pass' the 87s...
There is no need to modify a magazine/lower to realize that performance, so I'll advocate taking the 'easy way out' every time

For conversation...

 

[Silent Hunter]

Why not just call Mike at Dtech and order one upper of each caliber, .243WSSM and the .25WSSM?
Then we would all be happy and have the best of both worlds?? LOL

 

[mbkmkk]

Originally Posted By: ricky_arthurMBKMKK,I apologize, but have to admit that I think we were both having fun.

It was raining, I was board. I saw you needed some ribbing!

 

[mbkmkk]

Originally Posted By: knockemdownWow, that is long! 105 Amaxs?
Does your magazine still have 4 sides to it? (juuuust kiddin'!!!)
Can you get 3K with them accurately out of your AR-15?
What barrel length & twist is it?

I ran some numbers with an 87gr Vmax @ 3250 and a 105gr Amax @ 3000. These velocity #s are a safe guesstimate.
Based on those #s, the 87s shoot flatter than the 105s from the muzzle, all the way out to 900 yds!
AND they stay within 1 MOA of wind the whole way. So effectively, the 105 ain't buyin' a Wizzer shooter anything in elevation and barely enough wind to justify the effort to make 'em cycle reliably, or without a Dremel tool

Even if I were a little off with the speeds and the 105s did edge out the 87s, it would still be negligable. And, it'd take those 105s several hundred yards to 'catch & pass' the 87s...
There is no need to modify a magazine/lower to realize that performance, so I'll advocate taking the 'easy way out' every time

For conversation...

I think this is a great example of how people put boxes around the side they are not arguing for.....

Look, I like the 87gr V-Max, but it is still 87grs and barrel life is going to be shorter then it will be when compared to the 105-108’s barrel life. There is a lot of powder being sent down that throat and that is always going to be the problem with the large case of the 243 WSSM no matter what bullet, but less with larger ones.

Who say the A-max is going 3000 FPS?

How do you know it is MOA, I hope you are not counting on those numbers as a guarantee at 900?

Hey, easy is good , But I not working Hard!

We can put numbers into a computer all day long, but real world matters. An Example.

This is Mike at D-Tech’s Re-Barrel: 243 WSSM 8-Twist Upper, using 2.315 OAL 105 A-Max, and not living inside the box of 3000FPS. Yes, Using a horribly tore up magazine that barely has any sides.

This load is close to a QL OBT Node that is perfect for the 24" barrel but just short.

You tell me, am I MOA with my 5 Shots?