25-06 vs. 25-06AI???

My next door neighbor sees about 100-150 fps on his AI's including a .25-06 over before the chamber was recut. He likes the benefit that the necks do not stretch and need trimming like standard chambers.

My .260 REM is not the way to get it done right now.
 
Doc, go to reloadersnest.com and you can find 25-06 AI loads there. One load for 120 gr. Nosler Partition shows a muzzle Velocity of 3417 fps out of a 24 in. bbl.
 
all i can say is dont believe everything you read. 3417fps 24inch barrel 120grain bullet 25-06ai. i dont think so.
 
Ditto...that one bent the needle on my BS meter...going to have to get it fixed now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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Interestingly, P.O. Ackley himself, dismissed the 25-06AI as his least sucessful attempt at wringing out a cartridge by his design.
 
Yes he did Chile...but he didn't have access to powders like RE25, H1000, and Retumbo. Super slow powders like that allow the 25AI to shine a little brighter than it did in PO's day. I'm having one built right now, I certainly don't expect 3400+ out of a 120, but I'm thinking somewhere around 3250 with a 115 Ballistic Tip should be reasonable in a 26" pipe. *qb
 
yep, the frequently overlooked facts that the naysayers choose to dismiss is the fact that the 40* shoulder makes for more of a burn inside the case and allow the use of much slower powders. I have gotten H1000 and even Retumbo to burn cleanly in my 6.5-06AI.

Velocity is just the proverbial icing on the cake, it is the case life and ability to use a larger span of burn rates that makes the AI attractive to me.

However, I am also under the impression that the 25-06 is already overbore, and the AI conversion will mainly be good for the brass. Unless you move up to the RL25, H1000, retumbo, N170 burn rates, then you may pick up a few FPS worth mentioning.
 


When DocCoyote said he never saw any published data on 25-06 AI loads, I only pointed him to a site that had some data, and quoted one 120 gr. load mentioned. I assumed he would go to the site and look at some load data, worked up by 25-06 AI owner's. The reaction to my post was mainly something like "that one bent the needle on my BS meter", but not by all posters, most of which seemed more informed.

Now, in my Speer Reloading Manual #13, it shows an 87 gr. bullet at 3552 fps. out of a 24 in. barrel. The info below was pasted out of the "Ammo Guide" site. Compare the "Nominal Performance" of the 87 gr. bullet at 3850 fps. About a 300 fps increase in velocity. Out of my old Nosler #3 Reloading Manual from 1989, it shows a 120 gr. Nosler Partition out of a 22 in. barrel at aprox. 3100 fps. The load I quoted was shot out of a custom 24 in. Pac Nor super match barrel with aprox. a 3400 fps velocity. Also about a 300 fps increase. When you figure in the 2 in. longer barrel, and the below quotes from old P.O. Ackley himself, maybe this velocity isn't so far fetched. He quotes a lot of the things mentioned in the posts, but also mentions that the 25-06 AI still gets the most velocity out of a .25 caliber, even though over-bore.

Scroll completely down to the bottom: (I am only doing this as food-for-thought for some of the posters).
SPECIFICATIONS:

Bullet Diameter:
.257 in.

Max Overall Length:
3.250 in.

Rifling Twist:
1-in-10 in.

Rifling Lands:


Case Capacity (est):
68 gr. water

Primer Size:
.210


NOMINAL PERFORMANCE:

Bullet Weight:
87 gr.

Muzzle Velocity:
3850 f.p.s.

Muzzle Energy:
2864 ft-lbs.


"Easy Link" to this cartridge (copy and paste into emails, forums, etc.):
.25-06 Ackley Improved - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=326

------------------------------------------------------------
(Above dimensions gleaned from Pacific Tool & Gauge chamber drawing #14-25/06. 40 degree shoulder variation shown.)

Formed by reducing the neck diameter of the .30-06 to .25 caliber and then fireforming, Ackley described the .25-06 Improved as "somewhat overbored" for the small diameter bullet. This means it's internal case volume is a bit too large to achieve an efficient expansion ratio, even with the use of very slow powders. As a result, increased sensitivity to charge variation may be expected between rifles. Accordingly, reloaders should always start a given load 2 or 3 grains below the recommended charge weight, and if deemed necessary, incrementally increase the charge while watching for signs of over-pressure.

Ackley was also careful to warn against the use of light loads during the fireforming process with the .25-06 Improved, describing the practice as "quite dangerous". He claimed that even though the resultant case would visually appear fully fireformed, headspacing might be short by as much as .05 inches!

For these reasons, Ackley normally recommended the smaller .257 Improved over the .25-06 Improved as being more of an "overall satisfactory cartridge" (Ackley's words). However, he did recommend the .25-06 Improved "for shooters desiring the highest velocity from the .25 bore regardless of other considerations."

The .25-06 Improved can propel an 87 grain bullet at nearly 4000 fps.


------------------------------------------------------------
Now, we need to hear from some actual 25-06 AI owner's and the velocities they have worked up to from this forum.

I do not have any experience with the 25-06 Rem myself and do not know what volumetric increase there actually is in the AI case, but do realize that with modern powders, primers, case preperation, and knowing that every barrel does not shoot the same velocity, many factors have to be considered. I certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but thought provoking comment and different views can be appreciated by most everyone in a non beligerent way, and should be. Best regards to all poster's.

Gary
PS I do have experience with 250-3000 AI and .223 AI.
 
Put it on a chronogrph and give real figures. Then we'll know for sure. If me and the BS meter have to eat crow, it will be done smiling at the same time I tip my hat to ya /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Weatherby, loved shooting things with his .257 Weatherby. He also shot some game I would never attempt to shoot with a .257. I was told I would not get 3300 fps out of my 25-06 with a 100 gr pill, I have two rifles. One a model 70, and the other a custom, and the custom get's 3220 with a 100 sierra fb, and the model 70 gets a true 3300-3310. I have owned several 25's over the years, including two 250-300 savages, one in a model 700 classic, and another in a winchester model 70 carbine (push feed made in 84 or 85) that I still have. It seems the .25 calibers like them as fast as you can push them. All have shown the best accuracy at the very top of the spectrum. There are many overbore cartridges out there, and some are great performers. .220 swift, all of the STW's, All of the Ultra Mags, and Weatherby's are also overbore. Overbore to me is sitting at my sister's house and listening to my brother-in-law, now thats overbore.
 
According to 2 of my loading manuals, Max loads in the 257 Weatherby Mag and 120 pill are actually 11 grains of powder (IMR 4350) higher than the max load with the same powder for a 25-06 and 120 grainer.....and the 257 Weatherby is still 217 fps slower than the quoted 25-06 AI 120 grainer.

Not saying it isn't possible....just saying I would have to see it validated with a chrono............. till then, I'm believing my BS meter.
 
87 grainer at 3850? Maybe out of a .257 STW! I don't think there's any way in hell to get that kind of performance from an 06 case and even a 28" pipe. I've been playing with .25-06 cal guns for quite some time now and it is rare to see one that actually makes book velocities. Most are 100-150 below, my current .25-06, a Rem. SPS stainless w/24" pipe will shoot 85s at 3500, but two loads through a case and the primer pockets are getting a bit squishy. I'm not calling bs on the data above, I just would like to see it "on the clock". *qb
 
My .257 Roberts improved gets average of 3623 fps with reloader #19 behind an 85 grain ballistic silvertip. I can believe 3800 with a .25-06 A.I. but I'm not sure that I would want to push it that fast. Throat erosion would likely be apparent very quickly.
 
DocCoyote, I think that it is a great cartridge, but IF & only IF it is set up properly & you use some of the newer powders to get the desired performance.
First of all, you really need a 26" barrel or longer to get
the max out of this round in my view. Actually, even the std. 25-06 does better with a 26" tube & as some have stated, it is hard to get expected velocities even with the 24" with most rifles. The velocity of 3400 with a 120 in a 24"AI would be difficult, maybe possible with a "fast" barrel & the best powder in a good chamber, but it would sure be upper end in the pressure dept.
My 25-06AI is a accurized Sendero with the 26" barrel. It will hit 3,400FPS (barely)with Reloader 25 & the 120 Nos. Part., but again this is with a 26" barrel & the load is stiff, but safe. My current load is using the Wildcat 125 Gr. RBBT ULD with RL25, CCI Mag primers & Rem. brass for
3,250FPS. This bullet flies very similar to the 30cal. 200MK
fired at the same vel. so it is now my bullet for Deer/Antelope, Varmits & Target, it will pass the Varmit bullets after 600 yards for targets & with far less wind
drift, which is harder to plot than trajectory any day of the week. This bullet worked well for our group last fall, we took 6 Antelope, 3 Mule Deer & 1 Whitetail with this load. The round will shoot the 100BT at about 3,550 &
though I haven't worked up the load, the 85 should go about
3,750. The round with a long tube will get CLOSE to the 257
Wea. Mag. but if you load carefully (257 Wea. is pretty fast) the Wea. can be a little faster yet.
No doubt if P.O. Ackley had been around after the newest
powders came out, he would have looked at this round in a
different way, that is with the 26" & longer tubes.
 
I really like the 25 caliber hotrods; it will most likely be my next gun. I just don't know which one. I like the looks of the 257 weatherby and the 25-06 standard and improved. I'd use it for everything from rabbits and yotes to deer and antelope. If you guys had a choice, which would you get if you were me? I reload almost exclusively (I'm too poor to shoot otherwise) so cost difference between the -06 and weatherby is not necessarily important.
 
I am a new fan of hot 25's but I really like the Roy. I have two (one 24"Vanguard SS and a MK V) both shoot lights out. I have owned 3-4 25-06's and only one shot unfussy. The others shot some loads well and some not. The current 25-06 is a Ruger and REALLY shoots. I don't buy into the argument of needing a long barrel on either. I have spoke to quite a few guys with vanguards that have chron'd loads and they are only down about 50-60fps. I know one guy that purposely cut a 26" barreled version (make and model I can't remember) down to 21" and at 21" it only lost about 100fps.
Anyway I would go for the 257Roy.
Theres my .02
Dave
 


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