.40 S&W vs .45 ACP

Troy R. Plambeck

Troy R. Plambeck

New member
Gentlemen,
I have an opportunity to purchase a Para Ordnance pistol and am considering it....but I am hung up on which to get the .40 S&W or a .45 ACP. Is there an advantage that one has over the other. Is one generally more accurate than the other. Obviously the .45 is great for personal defense, but isnt the .40 good for that as well. I want it for personal defense, but want one for shooting accuracy as well? Any advice?
 
I have 2 Para's both in 45acp, P-14 Stainless and a P-13 with the Spec-ops finish, both are tight and extremely accurate. Para uses a match grade chamber in their barrels, and both of mine are not real fond of cast bullets because of it. I shoot the plated bullets from Midway, cost is slightly higher than cast but they shoot great. I have a total of four 45acp's, the others are a XD compact and a Combat Commander that I have done a bit of work on, its a great shooter too, but at the range it seems the Para's get alittle more use than the others /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
The 1911 platform and the .45 ACP cartridge were designed together and the pistol works best in the original .45 ACP chambering. Literally, the handgun is most dependable in the original .45 ACP chambering. The .45 ACP is a better defense cartridge IMHO than the .40 S&W. The .45 ACP is also a more accurate cartridge in my experience than the .40 caliber. 1911 .45 ACP's have long held a revered spot on the battlefields of war, the backstreets and alleyways for defense, and also the target ranges and courses. In my opinon, it is a no-brainer.
 
Listen to GC, he hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately my administrator has decided that the best choice to protect my backside is the 40 S&W. And it has done so for the last ten years. However, if it was my decision, it would be a "no-brainer", 45 ACP. Someday, when I'm an administrator (God help us all!), things are going to change. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

GrouseSetter
 
My daughter and I have Kimber 1911s as carry guns. Hers is in .40 S&W and truthfully it's a fine firearm, very accurate, and functions flawlessly...and she keeps trying to get me to trade with her for my .45 (fat chance).

It may just be years of familiarity and habit, but I agree with GC. A 1911 in .45 ACP is the way to go.
 
I have never been a real fan of the 1911 pistol, have owned several. been issued several and have shot many owned by friends.
Now having said that, the two side arms you will find me with on a daily basis are a Sig P220 or a 4506 Smith and Wesson.
The .45 ACP cartridge has been getting the job done for over 100 years on and off the battlefields of the world and is still the caliber of choice for the operators who daily are sent into harms way. That says a lot to me.
 
A few years back I was taking a graduate class and met a friend named Kevin. Kevin was involved in an exchange of fire with a would-be car-jacker. He took two 25 autos to the shoulder and gave the car-jacker 3 9mm rounds to the lower abdomen.

During the class, the story came up due to local newspaper coverage. As it turned out the thug walked into the emergency room as Kevin was being treated, lived and sued Kevin for shooting him! As the story was told in the classroom, our ultra liberal professor smirked and asked Kevin if he had learned anything from the experience (expecting him to acknowledge the error of his ways for carrying a gun).

Kevin said to the professor that he had indeed learned something: "I sold my 9mm, bought a 45 and next time I'll kill the SOB so he can't sue me!"

I know this doesn't compare the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP, but every time I think about why to own a 45, this story comes to mind.
 
Go 45 acp. Why?

I'n todays defensive scenario, your just as likely to have multiple attackers as you are a sole attacker. With 9mm or .40 all operators are taught to fire double taps at each threat and move on. So the next time some "in style" pistol person, in style meaning that 9mm & 40 are the "cool" rounds tells you theres hold so much more ammo, remind them to divide there ammo by a factor of two, and that is how many attackrs they can stop with a single mag, that is if the "cool" pistolaro connects with every shot.

Lettuce move on to the "old school" .45. To put it in modern military termsl, it's a fire and forget system. Connect with oneslug and forget that attacker and proceed to the next attacker.

I have an inisder at Sierra ballistics tech line who e-mailed me there report of real, live police shootings. Where ploice shot bad guys, live fire with 9mm, 40's and .45's from police forces all over the country. even in this, the data is stacked mighitly against the .45. Police forces have not used .45's in years (decades?) and when they did they had archaic bullet technology as to what they have in the era of 9MickeyMouse and .40's.

But still the report clearly shows, even though they have FAR fewer .45 case scenario's that it is a microscopic % of shot bad guys that are alive for trial, oppsed to the 9mm & .40. 40 is far better than 9, but 45 is that far ahead of .40. the only time i would tell a person to purchase a 40 over a 45 is if they were a tiny person and where so intinidated by the 45 it made a mental block inhibiting accuracy with the weapon, and or if they could not at least somewhat handle the recoil to get the sights on the next attacker in a decnet amount of time. My two cents.
 
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Kevin said to the professor that he had indeed learned something: "I sold my 9mm, bought a 45 and next time I'll kill the SOB so he can't sue me!"

I know this doesn't compare the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP, but every time I think about why to own a 45, this story comes to mind.



GO KEVIN /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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the only time i would tell a person to purchase a 40 over a 45 is if they were a tiny person and where so intinidated by the 45 it made a mental block inhibiting accuracy with the weapon, and or if they could not at least somewhat handle the recoil to get the sights on the next attacker in a decnet amount of time. My two cents.



I can completely understand and agree with the post above.

But I will also add for fun,

I have a friend with a mid sized glock in a 40 and no I dont know the model, however we where out shooting a couple weekends ago, I personaly thought the recoil from the 40 was about the same as the recoil in my XD .45 Both of which recoil more than either of my Para's, which has alot to do with the others being a composite frames and such. I just thought I would throw this in FWIW /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
In reading the ballistics for both calibers..Where is the difference??

40 S&W .400 180jhp 1100fps and 483 energy/ft.lbs
45 acp .4515 185jhp 1000fps and 410 energy/ft.lbs

apples to apples they seem the same????
 
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In reading the ballistics for both calibers..Where is the difference??

40 S&W .400 180jhp 1100fps and 483 energy/ft.lbs
45 acp .4515 185jhp 1000fps and 410 energy/ft.lbs

apples to apples they seem the same????



Not. I'm trying to figure out a way to say this, but why would you shoot a 185 grn bullet in a .45. The gun was designed to put the enemy down in the trenchs of WWI using a 230 grn bullet. Seems logical that that is what ought to be in the gun when your trying to protect yourself or the ones you love. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
The 40 S&W is not what I would call a bullseye round for sure and not one I am fond of carrying as a Self-Defense weapon if I have anyother choice. Out of the two you mentioned, 45 would be my choice. I have to carry a 40 S&W on duty but never carry one off duty. Not impressed with their performance in shootings either.
 
Al?? I understand your mind set 100% but in looking at the 45 in 230jhp 900fps 413 ft.lbs still about the same as the 40??? What makes the difference??
 
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In reading the ballistics for both calibers..Where is the difference??

40 S&W .400 180jhp 1100fps and 483 energy/ft.lbs
45 acp .4515 185jhp 1000fps and 410 energy/ft.lbs

apples to apples they seem the same????



First, a .40 is just that, a .40 caliber. A .45 is a considerably larger frontal diameter and the bigger hole I punch through my attacker the safer I am likely to be.

Second, I've never seen a 180 gr. bullet from a .40 cal. that was listed at 1,100 fps from the major makers. Usually it's somewhere within the 900+ fps range.

Next, a .45 ACP is a natural 230 gr. bullet launcher. Forget the lightweights, the 230 gr. has been doing it's thing for a mighty long time with not much to complain about. Modern loads push the 230 gr. from a .45 ACP from 850 fps, to as much as 990 fps for some +P loads. If +P scares you in the .45 ACP, don't be worried. Even at +P pressures the .45 ACP is lower pressure than the standard .40 S&W cartridge. In fact, that is part of the problem for the .40 cal., the pressures are so high they can cause premature slide opening, case ruptures in unsupported chambers, firing pins hanging on the primer and case head, and snappier recoil than the little round should create. That may sound as if I dislike the .40 and I really don't actually dislike the round. I'm just not that fond of it as compared to the good old .45 ACP. I've been mandated by department policy at times to carry a G22 .40 caliber. In fact, in one month I fired nearly 2,500 rounds through that gun as part of training as a member of a high risk warrant service team. I shot the Glock pretty well and came to understand it as a weapons system. Especially after Armorers School. I also carried a Sig P226 in .40 S&W for a couple of years on duty. With all that said, it is the .45 ACP that gives me a warm and safe feeling when I'm strapped. I have many tens of thousands of rounds through various 1911 .45 ACP pistols and trust a good 1911 as well as I can any handgun. Given my druthers, a shotgun or rifle makes me even happier...
 
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In reading the ballistics for both calibers..Where is the difference??

40 S&W .400 180jhp 1100fps and 483 energy/ft.lbs
45 acp .4515 185jhp 1000fps and 410 energy/ft.lbs

apples to apples they seem the same????



Not. I'm trying to figure out a way to say this, but why would you shoot a 185 grn bullet in a .45. The gun was designed to put the enemy down in the trenchs of WWI using a 230 grn bullet. Seems logical that that is what ought to be in the gun when your trying to protect yourself or the ones you love. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



And a 230grain at @ 900 fps (where many factory defense loads are at) yields 414 ft/lbs of energy. Pretty much a wash with the 185 if looking solely at energy on target. But to keep apples to apples, perhaps we should compare +P pressure loaded .45 ACP ammo to the .40 S&W ammo as the .40 is essentially running at +P pressures in basic form.

So by moving into +P pressure you can bump the muzzle energy up a bit with 230 grain loadings which run about 950fps on average for 461 ft/lbs. Winchester is advertised on the high end with 990 fps for 501 ft/lbs. So the actual energy on target between the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP is pretty much the same. Now if we include Federal's +P 185 grain loading at 1130 fps, it leads the pack with 525 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

So if all one is concerned about is putting the greatest amount of energy on target, the 185 grain Federal load does it. However, while energy on target is important, it is not the only selection criteria for a bullet. First and foremost, if it doesn't function reliably in the carry gun it isn't of any use. Second, if it doesn't have proper terminal performance such as failing to expand, all that advertised energy is a waste. Remember, the ft/lbs of energy a bullet has at any range, is the theoretical maximum. That is, the bullet struck something which completely and instantly stopped it. If the bullet travels through the target it may have only exerted a couple hundred ft/lbs of energy on the target.

As for reasons to use lighter weight bullets: they offer performance characteristics that may be preferred over heavier bullets. In short barrels (under 4"), the heavier bullets typically don't get enough velocity to expand properly, so the lighter weight bullets are needed. They are able to reach their ideal performance velocities and function as intended. Also, department standards may dictate a particular selection.

Finally, from the design standpoint of the 1911 and the .45 ACP cartridge, the Army went to it after it witnessing the lack of performance of the .38 when combating the Moros in the Philippines. World War I didn't start until 1914, three years after the 1911 entered military service.
 
Here is a goog link to help understand the differences..There is still the user error factor to deal with and proper shot placement (cns)

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

Summary for Combat Pistol rounds as stated from their pages.

Large calibre bullets are more effective than Medium calibre bullets, including high velocity rounds such as the .40 S&W, 10mm Auto and .357magnum.
A heavier pistol bullet will perform better than a lighter one. Ideally select rounds of at least 200gr.
Choose the highest velocity cartridge loading in that bullet weight that you can handle.
Use expanding ammo of a proven performance. Revolvers and Derringers can often be loaded with more efficient soft or wide mouthed rounds that would not feed through an automatic.
Don't be misled by muzzle energies or % efficiencies.
Learn some anatomy and where to place your bullets.
Remember – it's your life.
 
The great advantage with the .40 is that it is often built on a 9mm size gun. That is you can have a .40 in a 9mm size pistol which is a big deal and a huge improvement. When you go with a .45 you have to size everything up. Except for the Glock GAP .45 which I think is built on a 9mm size pistol. But other than the size considerations go with the .45. It is big when it gets there, if it expands then bounus! Also there is no death ray out there. Shot placement is everything.
 
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Shot placement is everything.


That is what it boils down to, and at the end of the day it is personal preference, what works well in my opinion may have total opposite effects for you. I know guys that shoot and carry Beretta's and say they are the best gun in the world, when personally I would rather pick up a Sig (sorry HK). I don't own one but if I did I would stick with the traditional .45acp in a 1911 bodied handgun.
 


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