Morning all. Ive had 2 204 rugers in the past. A tc compass and a howa 1500 classic lam varminter. While the compass was actually surprisingly accurate, the thing was kind of miserable to shoot, so it was sold to fund a bolt action 6 arc. I will never be without my howa for pdogs tho, as it all but stacks 32’s from a bench. It is pretty pitiful the lack of accuracy with 40’s tho. I still have some factory hornady rounds im going to play around with, but my question is if i pull the btip out, is there any chance of improving the accuracy? Ive read that guys have pulled them to change how they do on coyotes, but im just talkin on paper. Not worried about velocity loss or anything else if they will group decent. Making the bullet shorter should help the stability if i understand the physics right, but is it enough? Thanks for any input!
40gr vmax accuracy with no tip?
- Thread starter 000shock
- Start date
AWS
Custom Accessory Maker & Retired PM Staff
If your accuracy problem is due to a twist too slow to stabilize the 40s pulling the tip or cutting it off just might make it short enough to stabilize. Stability for a certain twist is determined by the length of a bullet not the weight.
One nice thing it is an.easy test.
One nice thing it is an.easy test.
I pulled 3 tips last night and its kind of an insanely huge hollow point now. If accurate, all i plan on using them for is prairie dogs anyways, so explosive performance is moot really. And they pull very easily. Simple twist with needle nose and they slide right out, no bullet damage what so ever. Just curious if any first hand accounts have been made yet. When i get to it, ill be sure and post up how it went
Shouldn't have any effect on accuracy. Will have an adverse effect on B.C. Which, in the wind, will equate to reduced accuracy.
Many, many, many years ago. There was an article in Precision Shooting. Guy deformed the tips of bullets and compared accuracy to pristine bullets. In a very, very accurate Benchrest rifle. No difference in accuracy. I thought that read like BS. So I duplicated the experiment. And got the same results. Not BS.
Same article, he intentionally damaged the heel of the same bullets and performed the same test. Big difference in accuracy. Damaged heels had a very detrimental effect on accuracy. I didn't bother trying to duplicate that, after seeing he was right about the tips.
- DAA
Many, many, many years ago. There was an article in Precision Shooting. Guy deformed the tips of bullets and compared accuracy to pristine bullets. In a very, very accurate Benchrest rifle. No difference in accuracy. I thought that read like BS. So I duplicated the experiment. And got the same results. Not BS.
Same article, he intentionally damaged the heel of the same bullets and performed the same test. Big difference in accuracy. Damaged heels had a very detrimental effect on accuracy. I didn't bother trying to duplicate that, after seeing he was right about the tips.
- DAA
Thanks for the replys guys. Been a busy couple nights having started up hockey practices.
Looking back at my op, i guess what im looking to find out is if pulling the tip would improve the stability of the bullet. Ill have to measure with and without the tips to see how much shorter it is, but shorter should equal more stability. Just not sure if it would be enough of a difference. I would think that if the bullet becomes more stable, it would also help in the accuracy dept.
I might have to also use the flag on a cleaning rod trick and check my true twist rate. Stamped 1:12, but i have heard of some rifles being closer to 1:12.5 making the 40’s even less likely to shoot well.
Looking back at my op, i guess what im looking to find out is if pulling the tip would improve the stability of the bullet. Ill have to measure with and without the tips to see how much shorter it is, but shorter should equal more stability. Just not sure if it would be enough of a difference. I would think that if the bullet becomes more stable, it would also help in the accuracy dept.
I might have to also use the flag on a cleaning rod trick and check my true twist rate. Stamped 1:12, but i have heard of some rifles being closer to 1:12.5 making the 40’s even less likely to shoot well.
hunt0168
Well-known member
That’s kinda what I thought as well, but couldn’t remember for sure. I’m not an authority on bullets and ballistics.
I was also glad to hear that if it did help, the OP was only going to use them for rodents. I gave up on vmax in 204 on coyotes because of splashing with the tip in place. I wouldn’t think anything would improve by removing the tip. I am curious to find out the results though.
I wouldnt doubt it does, and i havent done homework on it recently but what i could remember is length, not weight, effecting stability. But that very well could be the length of the bearing surface vs overall length. My rig cant shoot 40’s tighter than 2.5” at 100, but the old 45 sp thats discontinued shoots 3/4 regularly. But, thats why theres ppl smarter than me on here to ask tho!
This is def my prairie dog rig. I'm not opposed to taking my 204 on stands, but i load up 45 gr sp’s if i do. I still have 3 boxes or so left of them, and i havent had any issues thus far. Taken 4 and recovered all. Still, the 6 arc is primary every time.
BBK, only reason really is curiosity and availability. I wouldnt go buy them just to find out, but i have them so why not play?!
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
Run the physical measurements thru the Berger calculator, see if there is a significant stability factor change.
Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Sorry disagree
The bearing surface is only relevant while the bullet is in the bore, once released from the bore bearing surface is not a factor. All bullets in the bore are stable regardless of bearing surface. Bearing surface can slow down a bullet so can a fast twist rate. Neither Greenhill or Miller formula's require input of bearing surface to calculate the stability of a bullet.
If I understand the V-max in the 20 caliber 40gr it's a boat tail, Which to determine stability one should use the Miller formula. Such as @AWS , @spotstalkshoot by referring to the Berger calculator, another source is JBM Ballistics.
looking at JBM ballistics which does have the length of bullets. The 20 caliber 32gr V-max which is a flat base measures 0.638" (one would usually use the greenhill formula for the best depicter / guide for flat based bullets, boat tails uses the miller formula).
The 20 caliber 40gr Vmax is
Which if I use the length of the 40gr v-max at it's stated length plugging in the 204 ruger cartridge velocity at 3600 fps using the howa's 1-12" twist, I get a
SOOOOO if pulling the tips on the 40gr V-max gets us to a length of the 32gr V-max of 0.638" reevaluating the data using that length all other factors the same... the new SG score is 1.317 so yes then it would / should stabilize. If the length of the 40gr Vmax with tips removed is say 0.641 which will return a SG of 1.3, should work. Above (longer) than a 0.650" bullet length (1.250 SG) is where things turn south quickly in stability. Keep in mind this is for BOAT TAILS.
Otherwise if you just need to shoot 40grs pick a 40gr with a flat base.
Just my thoughts on the topic YMMV
Just happen to think on the data with JBM Ballistics they sometimes list the ballistic plastic tip length, this after reading DAA response.
According to the charts (JBM) the hornady 40gr Vmax did not list a length of the ballistic tip for the 20 caliber.
If you don't reload but do have calipers and the loaded cartridge overall length is shortened by at least
stability does not always = accuracy, but accuracy always has to have stability. In other words you have to be stable first before finding accuracy.
Before you ask is the 45gr SP's you mention a flat base?? if so that is why accuracy is acceptable.
IDK why Hornady doesn't post the min twist rate on their .20 calibers, they do have a area for it.
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Ya, see, sgt mike has that smarter than me info i was talking about.
Yes, iirc the 45’s are a fb. They are factory loaded, not hand loads, so im going off past memory from net sources. Im guessing that hornady doesnt want to label min twist because they would have to say 1:11 for these bullets. That doesnt jive with most factory 204’s. Just a guess tho.
If these dont work at all testing them out, i will likely sell or trade them off for something i can use.
Yes, iirc the 45’s are a fb. They are factory loaded, not hand loads, so im going off past memory from net sources. Im guessing that hornady doesnt want to label min twist because they would have to say 1:11 for these bullets. That doesnt jive with most factory 204’s. Just a guess tho.
If these dont work at all testing them out, i will likely sell or trade them off for something i can use.
True, however im not looking to change performance, one way or another, of the bullet on impact. Im hoping to improve performance on the way to the target. Prairie dogs are like shooting glorified rats. With any 204 bullet, they die quick and easy as long as you hit them.
Widow maker 223
Well-known member
Try the 39gr Blitzking, I worked up a load for a friends Rem 700 years ago, it was stock with a worked over trigger and a $1K Zeiss scope. It would shoot 1/4'' groups at 100 and 1-1/8'' groups at 300yds. It didnt like 40gr v max at all.
This guy plus my 6 arc are why i want to get into reloading! Just really dont have the time right now, so waiting to invest in equipment. This is the only box ive come across in years so i grabbed it!
