yotestomper
New member
i cant seem to find any .223 ammo locally, everyone is out of stock. will i be able to shoot the nato round out of my gun without any problems? i have a howa 1500 with a 1/12 twist
5.56x45
- Thread starter yotestomper
- Start date
Hidalgo
Well-known member
It's debateable.
If your chamber is .223 Remington, I wouldn't recommend it.
There are lots of folks who do it on a daily basis and have no problems. But if you called Howa, they would tell you that yoru chamber isn't designed to shoot NATO ammunition.
I'd wait......but that's just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
If your chamber is .223 Remington, I wouldn't recommend it.
There are lots of folks who do it on a daily basis and have no problems. But if you called Howa, they would tell you that yoru chamber isn't designed to shoot NATO ammunition.
I'd wait......but that's just me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
yotestomper
New member
thanks man, thats was my thinking. im just getting desperate lol
jlindholm70
New member
It's as good a time to start reloading 223 stuff, or any ammo for that matter. Pick yourself up a Lee Anniversary reloading kit, a reloading manual, a set of dies, some powder, bullets and primers and you'll pay for it all in no time. It costs me less than $40 per hundred of 223, 204, or 22-250 compared to the $18-$20 per box of Hornady ammo. The only downside of reloading is that you shoot more ammo, but then again, that's the upside too. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Wingman26
New member
Pressure ratings for 5.56 mm NATO are 20% HIGHER than 223, that's a substantial difference between the two.
Here's a good article about that subject.
5.56mm v. 223 Remington
Here's a good article about that subject.
5.56mm v. 223 Remington
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
I have given up trying to debunk this. That they are not interchangable just has too much internet momentum.
The bottom line is that 100s of millions of rounds are shot interchangeably every year.
Jack
The bottom line is that 100s of millions of rounds are shot interchangeably every year.
Jack
I have shot many 1000's of 5.6 mil. ammo in bolt guns with no problems. Think about this to get a AR rifle to shoot a 308 you need to build a much bigger gun with a much bigger, and heavier bolt. This would be the AR10. To get a bolt gun to shoot the same cartridge you change the bolt. I have yet to see a AR gun shoot a full size 300 mag, or bigger. Because the strengh is not there. So any bolt gun should handle any thing a AR can shoot.
Droopyfur2
New member
I've been reloading 223's for quie a few years as have others on this forum.
The only rifle I've encountered that had a problem with the way my reloading die is set up was a Weatherby Vanguard.(I beleave that is a Howa copy or the other way around)
The person I loaded the standard load I use in my Ruger M77--Mini 14--Ar DPMS 20" 223 upper and other Remingtons etc. Didn't like the tight bolt closing my reload made him endure.(Whimp).All other chambers worked well with no complaints..
Could just be the Vanguard was a little tighter..Chambering said 223 as did the Ruger and the Remington etc-etc..
Not normally a problem, but could be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Later
DF2
The only rifle I've encountered that had a problem with the way my reloading die is set up was a Weatherby Vanguard.(I beleave that is a Howa copy or the other way around)
The person I loaded the standard load I use in my Ruger M77--Mini 14--Ar DPMS 20" 223 upper and other Remingtons etc. Didn't like the tight bolt closing my reload made him endure.(Whimp).All other chambers worked well with no complaints..
Could just be the Vanguard was a little tighter..Chambering said 223 as did the Ruger and the Remington etc-etc..
Not normally a problem, but could be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Later
DF2
MPFD
Well-known member
Even if you don't have problems firing the ammo, it won't be up to most peoples accuracy standard. Most of whats availble is crap made for spraying M4's, that aren't that accurate anyway. I bought some britsh surplus cheap hoping just to save money on the brass it was loaded in. About every 4-6th one jamed and it grouped like 8" (NEF). Most of that stuff is heavy ball, or long steel penetrator, and neither seemed to stablize in my 1-12 twist. But! it did group well in my brothers 1-9 NEF. Now that I have an AR I will buy it for commey blasting, and save the brass for my more accurate reloading.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
Quote:
I have yet to see a AR gun shoot a full size 300 mag, or bigger. Because the strengh is not there. So any bolt gun should handle any thing a AR can shoot.
It's not a matter of being strong enough to "handle" it, it's the possibility of chambering being different. Here's a great explanation from WikiPedia..........
The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common loadings by far are 55 grains.
The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.
While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.
Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive leade. Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice. Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.
I have yet to see a AR gun shoot a full size 300 mag, or bigger. Because the strengh is not there. So any bolt gun should handle any thing a AR can shoot.
It's not a matter of being strong enough to "handle" it, it's the possibility of chambering being different. Here's a great explanation from WikiPedia..........
The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common loadings by far are 55 grains.
The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.
While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.
Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive leade. Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice. Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.
Hidalgo
Well-known member
Quote:
223 and the 5.6x45 have the same SAMMI specs as far as chambers. It's just the mil-spec loads are higher pressure. So it is a strenth issue.
ghjacobs.....you need to read this....slowly (I underlined the important parts about the chambers being different, so you won't miss it)
While, .223 and 5.56 x 45 ammo are interchangeable, the 5.56 may be loaded at higher pressures than .223. SAAMI warns not to use 5.56 ammo in sporter 223 rifles
With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders. Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.
SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.
SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.
The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a chamber that's only rated for the sporting .223 Remington.
The .223 Remington and the 5.56mm NATO, when checked with a chamber ream from a reliable manufacturer of each, also have discernable differences in the areas of freebore diameter, freebore length (leade) and angle of the throat.
223 and the 5.6x45 have the same SAMMI specs as far as chambers. It's just the mil-spec loads are higher pressure. So it is a strenth issue.
ghjacobs.....you need to read this....slowly (I underlined the important parts about the chambers being different, so you won't miss it)
While, .223 and 5.56 x 45 ammo are interchangeable, the 5.56 may be loaded at higher pressures than .223. SAAMI warns not to use 5.56 ammo in sporter 223 rifles
With the appearance of full metal jacket military 5.56 ammunition on the commercial Market, it has come to the attention of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) that the use of military 5.56mm ammunition in sporting rifles chambered for Caliber .223 Remington cartridges can lead to higher-than-normal chamber pressures and possible hazards for the firearm, its user and bystanders. Tests have confirmed that chamber pressures in a sporting rifle may be significantly higher in the same gun when using military 5.56mm ammunition rather than commercially loaded Caliber .223 Remington cartridges, according to SAAMI.
SAAMI points out that chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber.
SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer.
The .223 Remington is rated for a maximum of 50,000 CUP while the 5.56mm is rated for 60,000 CUP. That extra 10,000 CUP is likely sufficient to cause a failure in a chamber that's only rated for the sporting .223 Remington.
The .223 Remington and the 5.56mm NATO, when checked with a chamber ream from a reliable manufacturer of each, also have discernable differences in the areas of freebore diameter, freebore length (leade) and angle of the throat.
crapshoot
Well-known member
your not going to want to hunt with NATO FMJ ammo anyway. I have a box of federal premium Tactical LEO ammo. 55gr Sierra gameking hp's. Your welcome to it. With as many yotes as were calling lately, they should last you about a year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Next time you see me out in the desert, drop in and say hi instead of ducking your head and hope I didn't notice your truck. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
I believe that is outdated info. The last time I checked commercial 223 ammo was allowed to be loaded to 63,000 psi.
With the experience using them interchangeably the arguments not to don't hold much water. 100s of millions of rounds fired every year are pretty good evidence that it is not a problem.
Jack
With the experience using them interchangeably the arguments not to don't hold much water. 100s of millions of rounds fired every year are pretty good evidence that it is not a problem.
Jack
yotestomper
New member
thanks guys for all the info. crapshoot i might take you up on the offer but they might last at least two years /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
by the way lance sorry i didnt stop i didnt want my luck to rub off on ya lol no really i wasnt sure that was you otherwise i would have stopped to aleast pee on your tire lol
by the way lance sorry i didnt stop i didnt want my luck to rub off on ya lol no really i wasnt sure that was you otherwise i would have stopped to aleast pee on your tire lol
What get me is you can't shoot a max load from a boltgun in a AR. Then these guys are saying you can shoot a 10 to 13,000 higher pressure in an AR? Hot .223 boltgun round will wear out a AR. Anyway, proof loads used to test firearms are way higher than anything that will ever be stuck in a rifle by anyone with an sense at all. I have fired more .223 rounds than I can count of both with no problems. Just can't see it. A bolt gun will take way more pressure than any AR.
crapshoot
Well-known member
I keep trying to every year yotekyllr. Had planned to make it to battlemountain this year, but snow kept me farther south. I've lived here all my life. Farthest north I have made it is Ely on the east side and Tonopah on the west side. I did go to Reno once for High School though. There is alot of the state I have yet to see. Hopefully this year i'll have some fellas coming in from Il, and one of the colder states (cant remember north or south) and we plan to do some northern Nevada search and destroy.