accuracy equation what % bullet, powder

S

steve garrett

Well-known member
lets say you have a gun all put together. Lets also say you have a bullet picked out that you really want to shoot. A what point do you give up on trying to get a particular bullet to shoot after messing with different powder combinations. I know there are no hard and fast rules but if you had to guess how much of an accurate load depends on the bullet selected and how much depends on using the right powder for that bullet??
 
Mr. Garrett:

Reviewing the reloading manuals means you seldom have "to guess" on what combinations of bullet and powders shoot well. Get some manuals and read up....then test the bullets/powders that you decide to purchase.

Your question is a reversal of the actual cause and effect relationship.

Just about all the bullets made today shoot 'well enough' for hunting at the longest practical ranges for the game involved. The powders that will work are a matter of record.

About 99% is not the bullet or powder...it is ultimately the skills of the guy putting the bullet and powder together and pulling the trigger.

Good Hunting
 
Originally Posted By: BuckeyeSpecialMr. Garrett:

Reviewing the reloading manuals means you seldom have "to guess" on what combinations of bullet and powders shoot well. Get some manuals and read up....then test the bullets/powders that you decide to purchase.

Your question is a reversal of the actual cause and effect relationship.

Just about all the bullets made today shoot 'well enough' for hunting at the longest practical ranges for the game involved. The powders that will work are a matter of record.

About 99% is not the bullet or powder...it is ultimately the skills of the guy putting the bullet and powder together and pulling the trigger.

Good Hunting

Actually you are completely wrong. Just because a load is in a manual does not mean it is going to shoot good. Also, not every bullet is going to shoot "well enough" for hunting purposes. A 2" group at 100 yds will not work for any kind of hunting. You remind me of someone I saw at the range a few years ago. He shot a 4" group at 50 yards and stated that is good enough for hunting.

The skills of the shooter are important but is not the only factor. The load is also. I shoot quite well and have some groups with loads that will measure 2"+ and get some that will measure 1/2". Just today I was testing loads for a 204 Ruger. The best group was .487 and the worst was just over 2". You have got to find the right combination and every gun shoots different.
 
If it was me,I would try a different bullet and see if it shoots. I rifle is sort of like a female,you have to find what she likes,not try to make her like what you want her to. Consider primers as well.Sometimes primers can make a big difference.
 
"A 2 inch group at 100 yards will not work for any kind of hunting."--reb8600

That is quite a quote, care to elaborate a little? Coyotes conservatively have a 4" vital zone, so a 2" group at 100 should roughly equate to 4" at 200, seems to me that should work for coyotes for the most part. Sure you could figure the group will open up some with field shooting compared to off the bench, but not a crazy amount. Deer and elk the vitals are considerably larger, so seems to me a 2" shooting rig should work for them out there a fair distance. Hard to argue with the numbers of game animals taken over the years with iron sighted guns that were lucky to hold 2" groups.
 
Ok back to the original question. If there's a bullet I really want to use I may try up to 3 suitable powders with different charge weights. However if the first combo shoots crazy bad I might give up on it right there.

I always used to think the bullet was the most important factor, and it might be, but not by as much of a factor as I thought it was in the past. Powder choice and charge weight are next, followed by seating depth, which can make a HUGE difference in some barrels, and none in others. Seems like the small things make more of a difference in light, whippy barrels than in bull barrels.

Considering all the possible combinations, sometimes I think it's a miracle we can find good loads at all.
 
2" would be ok for coyotes but it shrinks your fudge factor. Im a exact point and click operator so 2" groups suck. I tried some cheap bullets with many different types of powder. Groups were really erratic and would not shrink. Your frustration level will tell you when its time to give up.
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"Your frustration level will tell you when its time to give up."

There is something I can believe. If time and funds are not an issue and a guy just has to shoot that bullet out of that gun I guess have at it. For me, I will try few different powders and primers shooting 3 shots of each load. If I get something promising I will experiment with seating depth and try to tighten things up. Never had my heart set on a particular bullet, but I can't see shooting any more than 75-100 of one bullet if I can't find something that shows some potential. I have been fairly fortunate in the fact that so far my rifles have not been too finicky.

I have found a couple times that different powders will shoot the same bullet equally well. Not sure why, but wonder if it has something to do with the bullet/barrel combo liking a certain velocity.
Shooting prairie dogs 2" groups are not gonna do it for me. If I were in CA and had to shoot non toxics on a Tule elk hunt and 2" in was the best they would do in my rifle I would be just fine. I guess I am saying I would look at the accuracy needed to do the job at hand as being the deciding factor in how much I invested in load development.
 
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Originally Posted By: obaro"A 2 inch group at 100 yards will not work for any kind of hunting."--reb8600

That is quite a quote, care to elaborate a little? Coyotes conservatively have a 4" vital zone, so a 2" group at 100 should roughly equate to 4" at 200, seems to me that should work for coyotes for the most part. Sure you could figure the group will open up some with field shooting compared to off the bench, but not a crazy amount. Deer and elk the vitals are considerably larger, so seems to me a 2" shooting rig should work for them out there a fair distance. Hard to argue with the numbers of game animals taken over the years with iron sighted guns that were lucky to hold 2" groups.

Someone that is shooting 2" groups from a bench are going to shoot bigger groups in the field from a set of sticks and the excitement. For most hunting it is not acceptable unless you are one that shoots just to hit the animal. Many animals are wounded because someone thinks it is good enough. I am one that wants a one shot kill and want the bullet to hit where I aim. You take someone shooting a 2" group from the bench and put them on an elk at 200-250 yds and you will have a gut shot animal. I have spent a lot of years on the range. It is amazing just how bad a lot of people shoot.

As for the open sights, most of them people knew the limits of the rifle and their skills. Now days everyone is a long range shooter in their eyes.

If a 2" group is acceptable to you, that is your choice. For me though it is not.
 
I personally despise the phrase "good enough to go hunting". Wouldn't you want the most accuracy you can possibly attain? I geuss it's just a personal thing. My guns have to shoot at least sub moa and preferably 1/2 moa or they don't go hunting.

As far as the original question is concerned I really just go by feel. If something has shown zero promise after awhile I decide I don't think it's going to and start changing things.
 
I haven't had much of an issue finding the right combo with bullets and powder. Now a days with the internet in our favor I do as much searching on the internet as I can before I start loading anything. If you really want to shoot a particular bullet search the net (don't forget about here) and see what other people's experiences have been with that bullet. (Take the 53gr vmax as an example) Chances are you're going to find what powders are most commonly used and what guns-(barrel twist rates)... It's a huge headache saver, time saver, and money saver IMO
 
Originally Posted By: Widow maker 223Your frustration level will tell you when its time to give up.
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That says it all for my approach. I have experienced the frustration of building custom rifles with a particular bullet in mind, only to have the finished rifle not shoot the chosen bullet up to my expectations. In one instance, a 6AI that I built around the 87 Vmax, I tried I don't know how many powders before giving up. I should have just given up sooner, as it showed right from the start it would do better with other bullets.

If I don't have just one bullet I really want to use, and a rifle isn't shooting to expectations, the bullet is always the first thing I change.

Personally, I think bullet selection is the primary factor in the accuracy of a load. With a bullet that a barrel really likes, there will be quite a variety of powders that will shoot well. With a bullet the barrel doesn't like, you won't find a powder to get it shooting well.

Bullets. One of the Three B's. They matter, a lot. More than powder.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: reb8600Originally Posted By: obaro"A 2 inch group at 100 yards will not work for any kind of hunting."--reb8600

That is quite a quote, care to elaborate a little? Coyotes conservatively have a 4" vital zone, so a 2" group at 100 should roughly equate to 4" at 200, seems to me that should work for coyotes for the most part. Sure you could figure the group will open up some with field shooting compared to off the bench, but not a crazy amount. Deer and elk the vitals are considerably larger, so seems to me a 2" shooting rig should work for them out there a fair distance. Hard to argue with the numbers of game animals taken over the years with iron sighted guns that were lucky to hold 2" groups.

Someone that is shooting 2" groups from a bench are going to shoot bigger groups in the field from a set of sticks and the excitement. For most hunting it is not acceptable unless you are one that shoots just to hit the animal. Many animals are wounded because someone thinks it is good enough. I am one that wants a one shot kill and want the bullet to hit where I aim. You take someone shooting a 2" group from the bench and put them on an elk at 200-250 yds and you will have a gut shot animal. I have spent a lot of years on the range. It is amazing just how bad a lot of people shoot.

As for the open sights, most of them people knew the limits of the rifle and their skills. Now days everyone is a long range shooter in their eyes.

If a 2" group is acceptable to you, that is your choice. For me though it is not.

Someone that is going to miss by 2 feet with a 2" group is going to miss by 2 feet with a .000000000000000001" group. That has 0 to do with the gun/ammo's capability. A 2" group is more than adequate for a target the size of a dinner plate out to about 300 yards. And an elks vital area is larger than most dinner plates.

Beyond that it's not the tool, it's the person using the tool.
 
to answer the question that garrett ask some bullets wont shoot well enough no matter what powder,but some times a different grain bullet of the same brand will.i have a 280AI that shoots 140gr bergers in one hole but 168gr. won't shoot under a inch.
 
I typically try all the different types of powders that I have on hand. If I can't get any combo to shoot well, then I will either try a different bullet, or I'll try a different powder.
 
Originally Posted By: NdIndy A 2" group is more than adequate for a target the size of a dinner plate out to about 300 yards. And an elks vital area is larger than most dinner plates.

Beyond that it's not the tool, it's the person using the tool.

There are plenty of people out there that cant hit the plate at 100 yds.
 
I have not built a rifle for a certain bullet, but i have picked bullets for certain rifles and have had good luck. I like to tweak a load till I get to a quarter inch off a bench consistently. The reason is im good to go out to 300 yards on sticks and after that I go prone, because im not that steady of a shot. I like to give myself the best chance I can. I would like to know the bullet is doing what it is supposed to, but it is me that missed. Im not out to wound animals. If the bullet wont give me what I want.... Its time to find something that does. I also agree that bullets are a lot more important than powder or primers. Of course i would like to move a bullet as fast as I can, but I would rather have a round that is acurate more than anything.
 
I would not be able to keep a gun in my safe if it would only shoot 2" at a hundred. That would be like hunting with a trash running hound.To many hounds in the world to follow a trash runner.To many half minute rifles to shoot a 2"er. Speaking of modern cartridge rifles of course.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettlets say you have a gun all put together. Lets also say you have a bullet picked out that you really want to shoot. A what point do you give up on trying to get a particular bullet to shoot after messing with different powder combinations. I know there are no hard and fast rules but if you had to guess how much of an accurate load depends on the bullet selected and how much depends on using the right powder for that bullet??

To specifically answer your question, I have seen the biggest improvements when testing loads when I switch bullets. Seldom--in fact never that I can recall--have I been able to make a poor-shooting bullet into one that has what I deem to have acceptable accuracy just by changing or tweaking the powder. I might be able to dial in the second-place bullet such that it ends up better than the bullet that initially performed slightly better, but I don't recall a true poor performer ever turning stellar just by switching powder.

When seeking a new load, I almost always test multiple bullets head to head first. This will usually reveal where the most potential is, at least initially. At this point, it's more about eliminating the ones that truely don't show much promise.

From there, I can change powders, dial in powder charages, etc. But this is fine tuning, as far as I'm concerned.

Grouse
 
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