Greg_Meyer
New member
Folks, I apprerciate a good discussion and value, greatly, the opinions I get from this site. However, I don't get (or expect to get) tax advice from my mailman. I don't get medical advice from my cousin who is an auto mechanic. My point is this; this is a serious subject and be aware of the source of your advice and the opinions expressed. Well intentioned advice might just cost you your safety.
I served with the USMC, as a Platoon Leader, almost two full tours in Vienam in an Infantry Company. I came home and became a Deputy Sheriff, a City Patrolman and then a Deputy Sheriff, again. In all I spent almost 30 years carrying and using a handgun as a defensive weapon. Along the way I served as a Trainig Officer, Department Range Officer and a Sergeant with a large (200+) member Department. For 8 years I was the Command Sergeant and Planning and Training Director for the Department's Tactical Team. I am not bragging, but I think you need to know why I studied this issue and what my knowledge and opinion is based upon.
In the very early 70s the Illinois State Police adopted a 9mm, the S&W Mdl 39. And, thereafter other agencies in Illinois began to look at something other than the .357 revolver. My department eventually also began to consider the 9mm. Thnakfully, in 1974 we adopted a liberal policy that allowed either a .357 or a .45.
In 1972 an acquaintance of mine, while armed with his 9mm S&W Mdl 39 found himself suprised by a man wielding a 2".38Spl. My friend drew and fired, emptying his Mdl 39 and (here is the important part) striking the gunman six times first in the torso (two lung hits and one liver). That gunman scored two hits (non-lethal) and was still advancing toward my friend when he went down from the sixth (out of 8 shots) and the last "hit", to his throat and neck. After learning all of these details. I knew then that a 9mm with Winchester Silvertips was not a good choice for a defensive handgun. As a Training and Range Officer and since planning was also one of my duties, I resolved to study this matter extensively.
I studied and read everything then available. I have since then read hundreds of incident reports, investigations and narratives of real world police shootings.
My conclusions are simople. Three factors keep you alive. Training (read as practice till you are proficient); Tactics (know what is at hand and use cover, etc.) and the right weapon (read that as "effective").
Read as much of this as you are interested, about the FBI shooting in Miami in 1986, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Here are the highlights...
"The FBI Miami shootout was a gun battle that occurred on 11 April 1986 in an unincorporated region of Miami-Dade County in south Florida between eight Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents and two serial bank robbers. The firefight claimed the lives of Special Agents Jerry L. Dove and Benjamin P. Grogan. The two robbery suspects, William Russell Matix and Michael Lee Platt, were also killed. In addition, five FBI agents were wounded in the incident.
. . .
Despite outnumbering the suspects 4 to 1, the agents found themselves pinned down by rifle fire and unable to respond effectively. Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the firefight, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents.
. . .
Of the eight agents at the scene, two had shotguns in their vehicles (McNeill and Mireles), three were armed with semi-automatic 9mm pistols (Dove, Grogan, and Risner), and the rest were armed with revolvers.
. . .
This incident led to the introduction of more powerful handguns in many police departments around the country.
I know I am on my soapbox. But, I also know I that my opinion is "informed". As I said before, I have had to rely on my handgun to defend myself. I have seen first hand the effective nature of the .45acp.
In a situation where "almost as good as a 45" might leave you with the 2nd place trophy (Oh yeah, they don't give those out after gunfights)... Anyway, I would never advise someone to choose a 9mm if I know they can use a .45.
I served with the USMC, as a Platoon Leader, almost two full tours in Vienam in an Infantry Company. I came home and became a Deputy Sheriff, a City Patrolman and then a Deputy Sheriff, again. In all I spent almost 30 years carrying and using a handgun as a defensive weapon. Along the way I served as a Trainig Officer, Department Range Officer and a Sergeant with a large (200+) member Department. For 8 years I was the Command Sergeant and Planning and Training Director for the Department's Tactical Team. I am not bragging, but I think you need to know why I studied this issue and what my knowledge and opinion is based upon.
In the very early 70s the Illinois State Police adopted a 9mm, the S&W Mdl 39. And, thereafter other agencies in Illinois began to look at something other than the .357 revolver. My department eventually also began to consider the 9mm. Thnakfully, in 1974 we adopted a liberal policy that allowed either a .357 or a .45.
In 1972 an acquaintance of mine, while armed with his 9mm S&W Mdl 39 found himself suprised by a man wielding a 2".38Spl. My friend drew and fired, emptying his Mdl 39 and (here is the important part) striking the gunman six times first in the torso (two lung hits and one liver). That gunman scored two hits (non-lethal) and was still advancing toward my friend when he went down from the sixth (out of 8 shots) and the last "hit", to his throat and neck. After learning all of these details. I knew then that a 9mm with Winchester Silvertips was not a good choice for a defensive handgun. As a Training and Range Officer and since planning was also one of my duties, I resolved to study this matter extensively.
I studied and read everything then available. I have since then read hundreds of incident reports, investigations and narratives of real world police shootings.
My conclusions are simople. Three factors keep you alive. Training (read as practice till you are proficient); Tactics (know what is at hand and use cover, etc.) and the right weapon (read that as "effective").
Read as much of this as you are interested, about the FBI shooting in Miami in 1986, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Here are the highlights...
"The FBI Miami shootout was a gun battle that occurred on 11 April 1986 in an unincorporated region of Miami-Dade County in south Florida between eight Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents and two serial bank robbers. The firefight claimed the lives of Special Agents Jerry L. Dove and Benjamin P. Grogan. The two robbery suspects, William Russell Matix and Michael Lee Platt, were also killed. In addition, five FBI agents were wounded in the incident.
. . .
Despite outnumbering the suspects 4 to 1, the agents found themselves pinned down by rifle fire and unable to respond effectively. Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the firefight, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents.
. . .
Of the eight agents at the scene, two had shotguns in their vehicles (McNeill and Mireles), three were armed with semi-automatic 9mm pistols (Dove, Grogan, and Risner), and the rest were armed with revolvers.
. . .
This incident led to the introduction of more powerful handguns in many police departments around the country.
I know I am on my soapbox. But, I also know I that my opinion is "informed". As I said before, I have had to rely on my handgun to defend myself. I have seen first hand the effective nature of the .45acp.
In a situation where "almost as good as a 45" might leave you with the 2nd place trophy (Oh yeah, they don't give those out after gunfights)... Anyway, I would never advise someone to choose a 9mm if I know they can use a .45.
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