Copper fouling, part two

B

bluealtered

New member
Ok, i'm sitting here waiting for the kroil to do it's stuff, so i'll throw this out here.
we are told that when breaking in a barrel, the first few rds. fill in the pores and rough spots from the machining making it smoother.
So when we remove copper fouling are we in fact removing those first few rds. that help to get those tight groups?

There are quite a few custom rifle makers here, so how about your thoughts as well as the rest of us? blue
 
I know I have a remington 788 in .223 that won't shoot out of a clean bore. Put about four rounds through it and watch that SOB come to life. strangest thing...
 
The answer to your question is so long it would take days to write. Each barrel is an entity of its own, making the barrel from the same manufacturer a little different from the next almost identical barrel. Next there differences between manufacturers. Some use a button and some use a single point method to cut the grooves.

Of the ways to make a barrel the button rifled barrels are the most common from the custom barrel makers and then the cut or single point barrel. These barrels are the premium quality that everyone wants. Hammer forged are the roughest and usually flawed with tear marks in the barrels, the broached barrels often have drill and or reamer marks along with chatter marks which hold more fouling than any other method of rifling.

Barrel break-in is not a science, its an opinion. And it seems everyone has a different view of its importance, and how to do it. I view it in the same light as insurance, its mostly useless but needed at times. In the hammer forged barrel, I think a break-in regiment is a very good thing and it will help in the cleaning process later on. On the real match grade barrels, the bore is so perfect that fouling is almost non existent.

If you know someone or a business that has a bore scope, it would be worth your time and money to take a look at every barrel you own. You will be amazed at what you see.

Broach'ed / reamer/drill marks
Barrels001.jpg


Broach'ed / reamer/drill marks
Barrels002.jpg


Shilen button / so smooth its hard to get a picture, it looks like a mirror
Barrels003.jpg
 
Quote:
I know I have a remington 788 in .223 that won't shoot out of a clean bore. Put about four rounds through it and watch that SOB come to life. strangest thing...


My remington sps in .223 is the same way. Clean it and it'll take about 20 shots to get sub moa back. So I haven't cleaned it for about 200 or so rounds now and it still shoots 1/2" moa at 100 yards. I had at one time a Remington 541T rimfire that needed to be cleaned about every 100 rounds. So any one that has broken in a few new guns in their time knows without a dought that every gun is different.
 
Great pictures Dan, guess they speak for themselves as to your explanation on barrels. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Quote:

we are told that when breaking in a barrel, the first few rds. fill in the pores and rough spots from the machining making it smoother.


So when we remove copper fouling are we in fact removing those first few rds. that help to get those tight groups?





My understanding of the breakin process is not to fill in the holes .......

... it's to deal with ..... not eliminate ... but deal with the high places as these will recruit fouling .....

Once these high places .... we are talking the protruding portions of a machining mark are ironed flat it will be much more difficult to deal with them. Thus the breakin process is used to deal with these protruding abberations (hopefully) before they become more resilient.

Now when you fire fouling shots ..... you are reintroducing fouling into the low places. .... kind of like regrading a gravel road only you are filling in the chuck holes with burnt powder and copper or lead.

Three 44s
 
Randy, here's your picture. You can explain why it's here.


This is a 30 Cal Savage barrel.
It is more or less typical of firearm manufacturers that are making rifle barrels on a strict budget, as in no barrels are rejected.
The resolution you see in the photograph is about 60% of what I can see with the bore scope. When you look at the photo's you will see a band running across the center of the picture, that is caused by the light source. It will blur the photo but not the actual look when looking thru the scope. Bottom line is if you can see imperfections in a photo you can see a lot more looking thru the scope.

CLEANING018.jpg
 
That was from a savage manufactured rifle sold by Lazzeroni. I was given the task to make it shoot after the owner could get no where with it. I promptly inspected it with the borescope. What you see in the picture is the last 2-3 inches of the muzzle. I told the owner, I would not waste my time or powder on the rifle. It was sent to Dan to be rebarrelled. I have not heard what he has decided to chamber it in. The marks you see in the picture are completely around the barrel. The camera does not do it justice. I was tearing patches going through the rough places. There is no way that barrel should have gone out to a customer. I have seen sewer pipe that had a smoother finish. A call to Savage and Lazzeroni met with resistance. Neither would back the rifle and told us it was our problem.
 
Quote:
In the hammer forged barrel, I think a break-in regiment is a very good thing and it will help in the cleaning process later on. On the real match grade barrels, the bore is so perfect that fouling is almost non existent.





Now that I was out shooting my first real custom rifle for the first time yesterday, I will attest to the above statement. Every factory barreled rifle I have had from new I used a break-in procedure on, and I think its helped. I also used it while shooting my new 6br yesterday which has a Hart barrel, there was very, very little sign of copper fouling on the first 5 shots, cleaned after each shot. I skipped right into my 5 shot groups, and only then did I see some fouling, but again it was almost nonexistant.
 
The only Savage factory barrel I've ever owned looked just like that. For the whole length.

- DAA
 
Is The Savage one of the button rifled barrels?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif I've got the 112 Low pro in 25-06 and it looks smooth as a baby's butt.

Dave
 
What I really like about a custom barrel besides the accuracy advantage is how easy it is to clean up and how smooth the bore is, nothing like it!!
 
The Savage is a button rifled barrel.
As you can see in the photo, the tops of the lands show drill marks, these marks are in the grooves also, but to a lesser extent as the button tried to iron them out. The deep hole drill bit they are using is too close to the finished size of the bore. The reamer can't remove enough metal to get rid of the marks.
 
Hey Dan,

Since you are posting pictures of barrels, why don't you post a picture of my barrel I just sent you. I would, and I am sure some of the members here would sure like to see the results of that Shilen 22" Barrel.

Cheers
Lastcat
Longview, Wa

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
My .308 Savage looks exactly like that all the way down the bore, like the button was stuttering through the bore. It shoots well enough, but now I know why it is such a PITA to clean. My Tikka on the other hand looks much closer to the custom barrels and shoots like one as well.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top