Creating ammo that has not been created before...?

Rock Knocker

Well-known member
I've been thinking about trying some Lehigh Defense 120gr extreme defense bullets in my 460 Rowland.

There is no load data that I can find on bullets this light for 460 Rowland. I do see Underwood is offering 170gr Lehigh 460 ammo now, so it's getting close.

I'm looking for some of your thoughts, from where to start with powders to possible malfunctions or it's just plain stupid to think about. If I could be approaching 2000fps with a .45 caliber bullet in a 1911, sounds like it could be worth the try.
 
I'm down for the experience.

BUT, 120gr,,,, 45 cal. Bullets??? They make them out of aluminum??

Action timing will be the hump.
 
I figured that would be an issue also but I've got 18, 20, 24 and 26 pound springs on hand.

The Lehigh 120gr bullets are little milled pieces of brass, the ballistic testing I've seen in the 45acp around 1300fps makes me want to try them in the 460.
 
Take the 45 ACP data and move up with the same powders. I haven't checked the case capacity comparisons but not a huge difference with same same bullets.

You know going in that 180 grain loads are safe so that gives you a basic floor to start with. I suspect Blue Dot might be worth a try but Unique will get you there too.

Greg
 
Thanks GL.

I looked into the burn rate chart to see where Blue dot and Unique were, I've got almost a pound of CFE pistol that seems to be on the burn chart directly between the two you mentioned, I was hoping I could burn up some of that CFE so that may be where I start. Think that seems reasonable?

I'm pretty dang picky when it comes to loading for my rifles but for my pistols I am happy as long as the bullet exits the barrel so this level of tinkering around will be new for me.
 
Originally Posted By: Rock KnockerThanks GL.

I looked into the burn rate chart to see where Blue dot and Unique were, I've got almost a pound of CFE pistol that seems to be on the burn chart directly between the two you mentioned, I was hoping I could burn up some of that CFE so that may be where I start. Think that seems reasonable?

I'm pretty dang picky when it comes to loading for my rifles but for my pistols I am happy as long as the bullet exits the barrel so this level of tinkering around will be new for me.



I don't rely too much on burn rates in pistol powder down in the 45 ACP range but in this case I think that would be an excellent pick.

Hodgdon lists CFE with a 118 in the 45 ACP and a plethora of. I would look at-the 45 ACP charges and compare those to the 45 SUPER and see what is giving equivalent pressures and then I would take that 45 SUPER data and start moving up. The CFE doesn't have much track history so you will be doing a bit of catfish noodling here. The great thing is you knwo what a very light starting load (MAX 45ACP) is so that in itself would get me going.

The ROWLAND web page lists one CFE load on a 160 down a bit. I would use that as a starting level and move up.

Greg

https://www.460rowland.com/load-data/
 
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Cool, I looked at that 460 Rowland page a few weeks ago and they didn't have all that Ken Kempa data listed. Quite interesting but also disappointing, the light 160gr solid copper bullets show slower velocities than the 185gr jacketed lead bullets. I wonder how much of that has to do with bearing surface?

I imagine the 160gr copper bullets have considerably more bearing surface than the stout 185gr jacketed lead.

I've loaded a decent amount of 185 XTPs for the 460 and just from looking at online pictures
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of the 120gr Lehighs even they seem to have a bit more bearing surface than the 185s.

The other issue I may have to deal with in the Lehigh extreme defenders is that they were certainly designed for a 45 acp case, I will be seating to the same OAL with the 460 but the 460 case is longer and normally requires a crimp. My guess is that the case and crimp will come up and cover the base of the "flutes" in the Lehigh bullet, not sure what kind of issues that will cause.
 
Bearing surface for sure and lead given identical bearing area will always out run a jacketed bullet and a jacketed will out run a solid.

As long as the mouth is not hanging open around the bullet you shouldn't have any real issues IMHO.

Greg
 
Well, this should be a fun little project.

Today or tomorrow I will send my gun to Clark's customs to get the 460 Rowland barrel fit a little better. They said I should have it back in less than 4 weeks so I will have a bit of time to order the bullets.
 
I need to pick up a 45 ACP Nowlin barrel and have it reamed. I have the comp and I will probably run it on one of my PARA lowers cut for a Nowlin though I have one cut for a Clark that I run my 22 conversion on that is very nice.

Greg
 
They are a pretty darn impressive cartridge, looking at the numbers on paper is one thing but when you get out and shoot it's completely different. The muzzle flip is a little more than a standard 45 acp but the compensators work great and put most the extra force straight back into your palm, adding a little more discomfort with a slim 1911 frame but considering the near 44 magnum performance and the simple follow up shots it's worth it.

My first 460 Rowland was on a 4" Springfield XD I traded for, that would have been a great combo but the 4" XD ran on a stock 2 stage(forget the technical term) spring. I couldn't find any way of increasing the spring weight so I sold it. But a double stack 460 Rowland with reliable springs would be any bears worse nightmare, which is why I decided to get a 460 in the first place.

My 1911 has been 100% reliable with 460 ammo but needed some tinkering around. I was using the 24lbs spring that came with the Clark kit but my stainless SW1911TA has a loose slide to frame fit and needed a heavier spring, before I moved up to a 26lbs spring I broke one of the stakes or posts of the plunger tube. I took my sweet time ordering a new plunger tube and a very gracious member here sent me his plunger tube staking tool. Once I got the new 26lbs spring and new plunger tube I took it out shooting and just the change from 24 to 26lbs spring really upped the pressure of the rounds I had loaded, I imagine the weaker spring was allowing the brass to start extracting before pressures subsided and the new spring kept everything locked up tighter and gave me a big pressure spike.

I just had to use one of those dang hammer type bullet pullers to unload 120 rounds.

And my 460 barrel always shot around a foot high at 20 yards so I started measuring things and realized it wasn't fully engaging the locking lugs leaving the chamber tilted down by a few thousands. So when it gets back from Clarks it should be in tip top shape now.

They are awesome fun to hunt with also, I got a doe with it a couple years ago, she was napping on the side of a hill behind a large tree stump, I snuck up 10 yards away from her. Last year I used my buddies Springfield 1911 with the Clarks kit and got another doe.

The bullet performance is great also, I load 230gr XTPs and my buddy got 500 185gr XTPs from Hornady he has been using. The only thing that bothers me is that the increased weight of the springs really hammers the hollow points and deforms them, one of the reasons I started thinking about copper solids and the Lehigh extreme defender design seems like a perfect solution if they function as advertised. I would do a good amount of testing before I trusted the little 120gr bullets for hunting though.

With this 1911 I've had a strange problem when shooting 45 acp from the conversion that I didn't have with the XD. One or two shots out of 20 will sound like a little pop going off with little recoil, it wont cycle a new round and when I inspect the case the primers are flat as a pancake and pierced by the firing pin. I can't tell what's happening, I'm thinking that the case will be chambered without fully seating against the slide. Maybe the extractor is pushing the case from the magazine and the longer chamber doesn't allow the extractor to grab the rim but the firing pin has enough reach to hit the primer and when the round goes off the case head gets slammed against the slide...?

 
CFE pistol is a good place to start. I like the idea of using the 160gr 45 acp data as a starting point as well.

I try not to use a recoil spring any heavier than is necessary just because of the slam forward into battery. Don't forget there is a back half to a 1911. A heavier main spring combined with a flat firing pin stop, will slow the rearward movement of the slide as well. So you don't need to make it all happen with just the recoil spring. You need to time both, rearward and forward movement of the slide to make it balance correctly.

Shooting 45 acp in a Rowland is not a good thing as the acp headspace on the case mouth. Your flat and pierced primers are classic, excess headspace issues. Not safe. The pierced primer is the reason for the low noise and lack of cycling, pressure escapes through the hole in the primer.

This will be fun to see how this works out for you.
 
I've been eyeballing those flat firing pin stops for awhile. I see I can get the Lehigh bullets at Midway, a new firing pin stop will probably be coming with the bullets.

The only thing I will be missing is a dang chronograph... I saw Lehigh had a BC of .099 listed for the 120gr.... Maybe I will be doing some range drop calculations
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Firing 45 acp in the conversion kits is advertised as being safe but this SW1911TA has a quite large external extractor that must be getting in the way of proper chambering.
 
Well I just got a kick in the arse today. The farrier I was working with for the last several years just in the last month sold his forge and anvil and took the rest of the shoes, hammers and other small equipment(half of it mine) and moved to Florida...

That means I am going to have to spend around $1000 to get back into shoeing horses, and I've got jobs lined up for next week.

Not good news at all, especially after this long winter slow season. This 460 Rowland project may be put on hold.
 


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