Custom Rifles/Factory Rifles/Factory Ammo/Accuracy???

LUCKYDOG

LUCKYDOG

Active member
I have some really nice (to me) factory rifles that I have put fairly decent scopes on. Tika T-3, Remington 700 VTR, Montana Rifle Company and Kimber Mountain Ascent with Leupold VX5, VX6, and a couple of Zeiss V4's. All 4 rifles shoot really good with premium factory ammo. I shoot Hornady ELD-X mostly. Here's my question. If I'm not going to reload for whatever reason, buying a custom-built rifle doesn't really make since, does it? I'm not going to get enough out of factory ammo to justify the cost of a custom rifle, will I? I have a buddy that is spending thousands of dollars having all of these rifles built and I'm kind of jealous. But I know for a fact I will never reload, and neither will he. I think typing all of this out, answered my own question but I'd still like to hear your opinions. Thanks.
 
I have a friend that shoots a very high end custom rifle with very high end glass. Its a 308 Win. He also runs it suppressed. Even though he reloads, that rifle gets factory ammo the biggest share of the time and it shoots it very well. Very well!!!
 
I believe a custom-built rifle will always shoot any ammo better than a factory rifle. That is the main reason for having one built besides the looks.
 
If you're a hunter, and not into little pity groups, most factory rifles with, good optics, good factory ammo will do the job.

That being said, I have three custom builds and several customized rifles, that shoot .5 moa or less, when I do my part at the loading bench and shooting bench.

I, purchased a Remington 700 SPS .223, few years ago as a donor for a custom build, dang rifle shot sub moa right out of the box with some handloads I had for my AR. Never built the rifle, sometimes the stars line up.

The purple paper puncher

Built by Jon Beanland

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Shooting factory ammo out of a custom rifle is about like running pump gas in a race car.
You'll never get the ultimate performance out of it.
 
Originally Posted By: TxhillbillyShooting factory ammo out of a custom rifle is about like running pump gas in a race car.
You'll never get the ultimate performance out of it.


Ordinarily I would agree with you but I have a friend that shoots very high end custom rifles and lately has been shooting some factory ammo in them. He was at the club yesterday with a 308. Its full custom, NF optics and suppressed. He was shooting some Federal 130 grain bullets into little tiny groups. The were in a blue box and were hollow point. I think he said they came 40 to a box. He does a lot of hog hunting at night and runs thermals on several of his rifles. He spends lots of $$ on his "tools" and lots of time behind the trigger as well. When I say tiny groups,we're talking three shot 1/4" groups.
 
Originally Posted By: LUCKYDOGHere's my question. If I'm not going to reload for whatever reason, buying a custom-built rifle doesn't really make since, does it? I'm not going to get enough out of factory ammo to justify the cost of a custom rifle, will I? I have a buddy that is spending thousands of dollars having all of these rifles built and I'm kind of jealous. But I know for a fact I will never reload, and neither will he. I think typing all of this out, answered my own question but I'd still like to hear your opinions. Thanks.

I just covered this on my Reloading video...

BASIC rundown of the story is this, IF you chart 100 factory rifles with factory ammo, THEN you let me work some reloads for those 100 factory rigs and chart them again, You will have a significant increase in precision with reloads over factory.

NOW you do a similar experiment with a custom chart, what you have to factor in here is an assumption, assume that your custom rifle builder isn't completely murdering a reamer over and over and over, like a "factory" manufacturer will when them make runs of rifles. What I'm saying is, maybe you get the first lot off the line, new reamer, good tolerance, great performance. OR you get a mid select rifle, mildly wore reamer, little slop in the chamber, alright performance. OR you get the lower end, reamer is dull, guys running it don't care, they're just pushing barrels out, and your groups are what they are.

Don't tell yourself a custom isn't going to shoot better than a factory, just to make yourself feel good, because of the fact your not gonna reload.

Sure reloading helps, A LOT, A LOT, but so does having a meticulous gunsmith who is fine tuned, and pushing out a product that is 1000's more than factory, and for good reason.
 
With your factory rifles, how to they shoot with factory ammo? 1MOA? .75? Can you justify the price of a custom rifle to MAYBE get a .25-5moa increase in accuracy? It will be cheaper buying X amount of different factory boxes of ammo to see what shoots best out of your rifles than to go custom. For example, I lucked out and found another factory load that shoots .5MOA out of a stock T3. How much better would a custom build be?
 
Originally Posted By: BoomstickWith your factory rifles, how to they shoot with factory ammo? 1MOA? .75? Can you justify the price of a custom rifle to MAYBE get a .25-5moa increase in accuracy? It will be cheaper buying X amount of different factory boxes of ammo to see what shoots best out of your rifles than to go custom. For example, I lucked out and found another factory load that shoots .5MOA out of a stock T3. How much better would a custom build be?

When you look at a Factory vs Custom, it's not only about the precision capabilities aspect. IF you can't see past that, than I completely understand your mindset alleviating and custom rifle prospect.

I'll explain in greater detail, and I've said it before I know. I hear guys upset at the price of a Custom rifle, yet they're the first ones out with a 5th wheel camper or 20K bass boat. To each his own, and that's honestly beside the point.

For me, a custom rifle is beyond art, it's beyond the meticulous fabrication that a professional gunsmith is capable of. It's customizing a tool, so much so, that it almost feels like a seamless extension of my own frame.

When you do something over, and over, and over, whether it's a hobby, or it's a job, you tend to gravitate towards getting the job done better, more efficiently, and on a larger scale. IF you farm a 50 acre hobby plot, you probably aren't gonna be in the market for a new 6195R pullin a 16 ROW CCS. IF you farm a couple thousand acres you probably are going to be in the market for such a machine. I'm not downplaying the hobby, because I know a [beeep] of a lot of guys who gladly pay for something they'll never get a return on, and I think that's their choice.

I'd say I look at it different than most, and that's where guys take offense. If I have a factory that shoots just as well as a custom 5K dollar rifle I designed, I'm choosing the custom 100% of the time.
BUT WHY JAMES!!!? Because I can, Because I want to, because that custom set up, provides me with the exact rifle I envision in my mind, how I want it to feel, how I want it to look, how I want it to perform, and how I plan on using it for my job.

 
Originally Posted By: skinneyOriginally Posted By: BoomstickWith your factory rifles, how to they shoot with factory ammo? 1MOA? .75? Can you justify the price of a custom rifle to MAYBE get a .25-5moa increase in accuracy? It will be cheaper buying X amount of different factory boxes of ammo to see what shoots best out of your rifles than to go custom. For example, I lucked out and found another factory load that shoots .5MOA out of a stock T3. How much better would a custom build be?

When you look at a Factory vs Custom, it's not only about the precision capabilities aspect. IF you can't see past that, than I completely understand your mindset alleviating and custom rifle prospect.

I'll explain in greater detail, and I've said it before I know. I hear guys upset at the price of a Custom rifle, yet they're the first ones out with a 5th wheel camper or 20K bass boat. To each his own, and that's honestly beside the point.

For me, a custom rifle is beyond art, it's beyond the meticulous fabrication that a professional gunsmith is capable of. It's customizing a tool, so much so, that it almost feels like a seamless extension of my own frame.

When you do something over, and over, and over, whether it's a hobby, or it's a job, you tend to gravitate towards getting the job done better, more efficiently, and on a larger scale. IF you farm a 50 acre hobby plot, you probably aren't gonna be in the market for a new 6195R pullin a 16 ROW CCS. IF you farm a couple thousand acres you probably are going to be in the market for such a machine. I'm not downplaying the hobby, because I know a [beeep] of a lot of guys who gladly pay for something they'll never get a return on, and I think that's their choice.

I'd say I look at it different than most, and that's where guys take offense. If I have a factory that shoots just as well as a custom 5K dollar rifle I designed, I'm choosing the custom 100% of the time.
BUT WHY JAMES!!!? Because I can, Because I want to, because that custom set up, provides me with the exact rifle I envision in my mind, how I want it to feel, how I wanted it look, how I want it to perform, and how I plan on using it for my job.



Oh, I'm not trying to discredit anyone's rational on their reasons to own custom rifles. I just wasn't sure of the OP's reason to wanting a custom build. Any no offense taken and totally agree with your logic...especially BUT WHY JAMES!!!? Because I can, Because I want to. All the reason you need
 
Confidence in your equipment is a pretty [beeep] important part of having the necessary "inner peace" and "mental focus" for marksmanship competition. (For me, hunting IS a marksmanship competition). You can't be in the propper mindset if you have the slightest nagging doubt about how your gear may fail you when it matters most.

Even the best gear can fail, but failure is probably not as likely with custom or top quality. Shifting zero, failure to load/fire, failure to track correctly, etc.

I had a top quality firearm trigger malfunction on the line at the collegiate national championships literally minutes before the event began. It completely destroyed my confidence and focus and I couldn't recover mentally. I was ranked #1 in the nation going in, but totally blew that match and came out well below my expectation.

I want confidence in my equipment, I want to know it will perform consistently well when I need it to perform. I don't think everyone needs custom gear or top quality gear to have that confidence, but it's great to have the best gear if you can get your hands on it. And some folks who've "been there and done that" just won't have it any other way.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGConfidence in your equipment is a pretty [beeep] important part of having the necessary "inner peace" and "mental focus" for marksmanship competition. (For me, hunting IS a marksmanship competition). You can't be in the propper mindset if you have the slightest nagging doubt about how your gear may fail you when it matters most.

Even the best gear can fail, but failure is probably not as likely with custom or top quality. Shifting zero, failure to track correctly, etc.

I had a top quality firearm trigger malfunction on the line at the collegiate national championships literally minutes before the event began. It completely destroyed my confidence and focus and I couldn't recover mentally. I was ranked #1 in the nation going in, but totally blew that match and came out well below my expectation.

I want confidence in my equipment, I want to know it will perform consistently well when I need it to perform. I don't think everyone needs custom gear to have that confidence, but it's great to have the best gear if you can get your hands on it. And some folks who've "been there and done that" just won't have it any other way.

+1 Marksmanship is 99% mental (ETA: Given good equipment/ammo, of course.
wink.gif
). Custom gear adds another layer as far as reliability, but unfortunately, there are no absolutes. In a quarter century of organized competition I can recall only two equipment malfunctions with match rifles. The first was a 50 year old NM M1 Garand (op-rod broke in half @ the weld in the middle of a rapid fire string) which definitely cost me points. A "fire on release of safety" on a 40XC which was fresh out of the custom shop didn't affect my score directly, but never had confidence in that rifle and it went down the road. As DD said, custom gear can fail, too.

The following quarter century of predator hunting, have used both custom, home built & customized factory rifles. Admittedly the round count is considerable lower in the field than on the range, but I have had no rifle malfunctions with any of these rifles.

Any malfunction is definitely not conducive to precision shooting, as it certainly does mess with your concentration.

Regards,
hm
 
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I have a related question to all this. Price keeps coming up in the comparison between factory and custom. I have been doing some looking and thinking (+yup, dangerous I know) and I'm not convinced the custom price has to be that high. Not all of us can afford the custom actions, etc. But in more than a few auction sites I have seen eddystone-type actions go for $150 or less. I hate to name names because then the haters will come out but some barrels I have looked at are in the $400 range. I think a walnut stock out of California can be had for $150 give or take. Am I just wasting money and time on these parts or can I build an accurate package this way?
 
Originally Posted By: WTJonesI have a related question to all this. Price keeps coming up in the comparison between factory and custom. I have been doing some looking and thinking (+yup, dangerous I know) and I'm not convinced the custom price has to be that high. Not all of us can afford the custom actions, etc. But in more than a few auction sites I have seen eddystone-type actions go for $150 or less. I hate to name names because then the haters will come out but some barrels I have looked at are in the $400 range. I think a walnut stock out of California can be had for $150 give or take. Am I just wasting money and time on these parts or can I build an accurate package this way?

No one really knows that ? until you try it. Usually, most of the time builders that have achieved a high level of success attach a premium price for their product. Ones that don't, may not be that well known, or have a lesser reputation, but still have success with certain customers.

What I would say is, when you start factoring the prices of components that you are listing, UNLESS you are seeing some really desired upgrades ie.(barrel twist, contour, action options etc.) it may not be worth your time sourcing the components then having a gunsmith spin up the barrel and do his work for a glorified factory rifle, at a little higher price.

I would also say it may be a venue for you to dip your toes in the water of the custom game and see what you like, what you don't, and what you may do differently next go round.
 
Let me re-phrase the question. I have a Tika T-3 6.5 Creedmoor, a Kimber Mountain Ascent 300 WSM and a Remington 700 VTR 223. The only one that has had any gunsmith work is the Remington. All three of them are shooting groups close to the size of a quarter at 200 yards. I'm shooting Black Hills re-manufactured ammo out of the .223 and Hornady ELD-X out of the Kimber and the Tika. How much better would a custom rifle make those groups? I'm an old guy and these are three of the very best shooting rifles I have ever owned. I also have a Montanna Rifle company 7mm mag that shoots almost as good, and my buddy paid about 4k for that when he bought it. I just can't see a custom rifle making that big of a difference. I can however see a customer rifle builder arguing that it would. All I do is hunt and go to the range several times a year. I think I'll stick to my factory rifles. Factory rifles have come a long way in accuracy over the years.
 
Let me re-phrase the question. I have a Tika T-3 6.5 Creedmoor, a Kimber Mountain Ascent 300 WSM and a Remington 700 VTR 223. The only one that has had any gunsmith work is the Remington. All three of them are shooting groups close to the size of a quarter at 200 yards. I'm shooting Black Hills re-manufactured ammo out of the .223 and Hornady ELD-X out of the Kimber and the Tika. How much better would a custom rifle make those groups? I'm an old guy and these are three of the very best shooting rifles I have ever owned. I also have a Montanna Rifle company 7mm mag that shoots almost as good, and my buddy paid about 4k for that when he bought it. I just can't see a custom rifle making that big of a difference. I can however see a customer rifle builder arguing that it would. All I do is hunt and go to the range several times a year. I think I'll stick to my factory rifles. Factory rifles have come a long way in accuracy over the years.
 
Originally Posted By: skinneyIF you farm a 50 acre hobby plot, you probably aren't gonna be in the market for a new 6195R pullin a 16 ROW CCS. IF you farm a couple thousand acres you probably are going to be in the market for such a machine..........

I'd say I look at it different than most, and that's where guys take offense. If I have a factory that shoots just as well as a custom 5K dollar rifle I designed, I'm choosing the custom 100% of the time.
BUT WHY JAMES!!!? Because I can, Because I want to, because that custom set up, provides me with the exact rifle I envision in my mind, how I want it to feel, how I wanted it look, how I want it to perform, and how I plan on using it for my job.

Absolutely! A lot depends upon the job at hand (and the depth of your piggy bank at the moment, at least from my perspective.
wink.gif
)

For instance, when I was shooting XTC competition, I felt the custom rifles were well worth the cost, both in performance and the mental advantage of knowing my equipment was capable of out performing the shooter.

Originally Posted By: LUCKYDOGAll I do is hunt and go to the range several times a year. I think I'll stick to my factory rifles. Factory rifles have come a long way in accuracy over the years.

They sure have. When I first started shooting rifles in 1950, a true MOA rifle was a real prize!

Today, MOA is fairly common in quality factory rifles, or at least can usually be obtained w/some minor fine tuning. No longer compete but my hunting rifles have to shoot MOA to make the cut. AR's are easy, many Savages make the cut out of the box, but I'm currently hovering a tad above that with a .308 BAR. The horrible, creepy trigger sure doesn't help, but I may be forced to admit it is mostly my old eyes, not the rifle.

Regards,
hm
 
Originally Posted By: WTJonesI see both sides of this but I think for me it would be the fun of trying the whole process.

That's my problem! The whole process would include reloading. I don't have the time for that. Even if I did have the time for that, I'd rather go fishing. I've helped my buddies in their reloading process and it's not something that trips my trigger. But I love to shoot1
 


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