Decoy Dogs The New Fad?

D

DTOM

New member
Seems like decoy dogs are really taking off. There always has been intrest in them by ADC/Denners/Gmen ect... but it seems like the average hunter is buying most of the dogs now and quite a few of the breeders are no longer denners. They may be coyote hunters but very few work dens.

I don't know if most just want a buddy or if they think a dog will improve the number of coyotes they call.

I don't know how I feel about this new fad. It used to be VERY hard to find a good working dog and most guys only put dogs into homes that had a use for them. Not just calling or fur hunting. Most were not intrested in the money as much as trying to better their lines and get their dogs out to the guys that had a real use for them so they could get feedback on the dogs and improve their breedings. I've drove thousands of miles to get pups from quality dogs.

I'm not directing this at anyone or any specific post so don't get all tied in knots over it.

I just don't want to see working decoy dogs go the way of the Lab.

To the guys that are new to decoy dogs....Has the use of the dog increased the number of coyotes you harvest a season?

If you take out dening season, my dogs have saved me fur that would have been lost but also lost me fur that would have commited if a dog would not have been on the stand. Denning season is when my dogs earn their keep. I know without a doubt I can work more dens a day using decoy dogs then I could not using decoy dogs and just trapping and then using terriers.

How many guys plan on decoying during denning season? Do you also plan on working the dens?

Most breeds that decoy are great dogs at home as long as you have an outlet for their drive.

I started out using decoy dogs the way my Father and Grandfather used them, as tools for coyote denning but over time the dogs crept into more and more of my non-denning fur hunting. I've always used them to run fur, act as catch dogs for terriers, hunt all types of game and birds with as well as being a great buddy around the place and companions in the truck and on the trapline.

What are your opinions on the new influx of decoy dogs and decoy dog breeders? Do you think it will improve the quality of the dogs or detract from it? Do you think this is just a "flash in the pan" and intrest in them will recede and go back to the way it used to be?

To the guys that have them...Get out and use them. Now is the time of year that a dog on stand really pays off. The fur may not be worth anything but spring/early summer are the best times of the year to be working decoy dogs in the field.

Good hunting and dogging to all you guys.

Tim
 
I have been using dogs for awhile on coyotes. Have not done any denning, but I always liked dogs and will continue to use them as they fit my program.
You are right it is time. They are working the dogs good around here.

Monday call 5 on one stand and killed these 4.

IMG_1497.jpg


Last evening called 3 and none left.

IMG_1501.jpg


Yall stay after them.
Kelly
 
Nice work Kelly! I always loved your JRT's. Is the black and tan dog a Jagd mix?

I had the dogs out yesterday and worked 4 coyotes but didn't kill a one. I have a few special spots that I leave the coyotes alive so I have a reliable place to work young dogs. The dogs did however find a porkypine and ended what was a good day of decoying. My Jagds took it worse but both of the curs I had with had to pile on as well. Dumb dogs.

Enjoyed watching your episode on FoxPro's show. I was down in NW OK about a month ago. OK is one of my favorite states to call. Ton of great guys and landowners down there.

Thanks for yout input.

Tim
 
Tim - yes Pepper is a jagd/cur cross. I like her.

Yesterday evening the JRT Tater earned his feed. He went head to head with an old male coyote and Pepper was working the two others in the thick. I toned her back and got the two killed and then killed the old male.

Glad you liked the show, that TV stuff is a lot more work that it looks like.

My buddy has a Jagd/JRT cross pup that looks just like a Jagd. I think she is going to be [beeep] on wheels. Time will tell.


I also have 5 male pups out of Pepper and my old chuckle headed Catahoula dog. This was an un-planned breeding.

They are going to be too big for what I want in a dog, if anybody wants one they are free...They are 8 weks old and tearing up stuff...come get em...send me a PM.
sorry to hijack your thread Tim.

Take care
Kelly
 
Good post Tim. I hunt the dogs the most from now into fall. I do decoy during denning season and do work the dens. I have found that a dog on stand isnt a magic wand and does cost coyotes. IMO it is a new fad and many dogs will end up hunting buddies and not really working dogs. The reason I say this is it takes alot of time and dedication and the coyotes dont always come in they way I figure they should.
 
This is the time of year why I bought my dogs for. On regualr calling stands in the winter they can be a bigger problem then they are a help. Except on cripples and such. I am new to the dog game have kept dogs for other reason over the years but this the start of my second year with decoy dogs.
Mike
 
I believe that this is probably a fad, as most guys wont use their dogs when they are most effective and be a little disapointed when their dog doesn't pull in every coyote. I have been at it for a little over 5 years now and use mine the most in spring and summer but also take them along during fur season, but not always, sometimes I wish I had them and other times I cuss myself for bringing them. I do work the dens in the spring, I dont have terriers, wish I did, but usually find a way. Like was said before they are not a magic wand and will sometimes be more of a detractor than beneficial, but if a guy is happy with the way their dog works, and it fits what they want than more power to them, but I do agree that most will end up more as hunting buddies, which is fine I dont use mine as much as some people, but they have worked good for me so far.
 
I actually think it's more than just a fad. The full body coyote decoys and estrus chirp...now that was a fad! Sure, there are some that will not take a dog to it's potential and get frustrated, just as some will end up as couch potatoes and family pets. But, it's just like anything else...you get out of it, what you put into it. Those who are dedicated, will never look back, once they work a good dog.

I've put an intensive training program together, that seems to be working. I feel that those who are sending me a dog to train will be dedicated, as to invest in training a dog. Those are the ones that I want to monitor to see how much the dog is used, moreso than pups going to a new home.

I call coyotes about 20-25 days a month and have a dog with me on every stand. They don't kick into decoy mode, unless I instruct them to. This time of year, I start working 2 dogs. I've only had 6 or 7 coyotes flare from the sight of the dog over the past couple years. I'll take those odds, as I can't count how many coyotes end up hanging on the hunting rig that would have not been there, if it wasn't for the dog.

Fad? Maybe...maybe not. Only time will tell.

Tony
 
Im new to the decoy dog and Im using my duck and dove lab for this. So far I havent called in any coyotes with him there so I cant tell any difference. I just like having my dog with me anytime I hunt regardless what Im hunting. My thinking is for him to simply distract for me while I take a shot. This may or may not work, but it is more fun for me when he goes and the dog seems to have a blast too.
 
I have had good results in using mine. I can honestly say that since I started using mine that I have had no runaways. He has helped bring in coyotes that would have otherwise been gone. I don't have the dedicated time that some guys do to work the denning season, but I am trying to convince my buddy that does govt work, to take my dog with him now that he is den hunting. I told I would even take the days off so that I could tag along. I am planning to keep using the dogs as decoys, they are great company when your hunting buddies wuss out on those cold mornings. I hope that it really isn't a fad, good dog work is hard to beat when it is done right.
 
Do you mean a fad like predator hunting? Up until about a decade ago hunting coyotes was a trappers game, so should anybody that wasn't trapping back then give up on coyotes? As the sport continues to gain popularity you will continue to see different methods of hunting predators also rise in popularity, including using dogs.

Will there be less involved hunters using dogs...yes. I am not a 'pro' but go out about once a week. I would never consider myself a 'serious' hunter as I don't do it for a living, but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy my time with my dog. But how can the increased popularity be a negative, unless you resent the increased competition? The rise in interest allows people who have been invested in dogs to make a better return on their investment and increase the general knowledge about using decoy dogs. As the returns increase more people will be involved in breeding quality dogs and promoting the sport. I don't see how that is a negative. But like I said, I'm no expert.
 
I believe that predator hunting in general is a fad. More and more people are getting tired of the decreasing big game oppurtunity and are looking for another kind of hunting they can do more often. At least, that's how it seems in utah. Now for decoy dogs, I believe more and more people are getting interested and yes it will decline when people really understand the amount of work involved to get a dog where it will work consisently. And with the increased excitement, you will see a few guys just trying to make a buck and breed some sub par dogs. It's already been happening for about 2 years now. Also with that, some of the guys that are true to blood lines and looking to improve the breeding standards will have a better oppurtunity also to create better lines because they will have more demand for better dogs. It's always a double edged knife and you just gotta be careful where you get a pup and do your research. Sometimes talking to people with pups outta the last litters and not believing all the hype is the best research you can do. Good luck to anyone looking to get into decoying as I've had a blast and learned alot from just my past 10 months with a pup.
 
Originally Posted By: HPWDo you mean a fad like predator hunting? Up until about a decade ago hunting coyotes was a trappers game, so should anybody that wasn't trapping back then give up on coyotes?

People have been hunting coyote much longer than a decade and using dogs to do it. Decoying and denning may have started in the ADC community but that doesn't mean it was all trappers. I know at least 10 guys that have been doing it for over a decade. Myself included and that doesn't even take in to account guys like my Grandfather who worked dens and decoy dogs for decades before he died. My father grew up working dens and decoy dogs. I grew up working dens and decoy dogs. Heck there are a bunch of other guys here who have decoyed coyotes for longer than a decade. But these guys are not the new breed of breeders. They didn't just get into decoy dogs to make money. Not that making money is evil or anything but it can quickly spell disaster in dog breeds and dog breeders. You don't have to look to far into the hunting dog breeds world to see plenty of examples of working dogs that are now water downed and almost useless in the field. I do resent guys that take others hard, long work in breeding quality dogs and in a generation or two of breeding for profit take it from a working breed and make it a house pet. All true dog hunters should resent this practice also. These breeders prey off of the uninformed and misinformed. There is a saying in the hunting dog world...I own dogs for their job, not mine.

Originally Posted By: HPWBut how can the increased popularity be a negative, unless you resent the increased competition?

Why do guys always throw the "afraid of competition" card out. Why would I be afraid of competition in the denning season or even when fur hunting? I travel around the US hunting fur and denning and there is nothing better than meeting up with like minded guys and hunting together. No competition fear here. Competition is what drives you to do better and go farther. Fur prices just are not high enough to bring out any real competition. Now the fur boom during the late 70's and early 80's brought out competition.

As for how can it be a negative...Backyard breeders taking what had been good working dog lines and polluting them with inferior dogs just to make a buck. No one here can convince me you know exactly what a dog has after having only worked it for a year or two no matter how many stands and coyote the dog has under their belt. It is hard to ever get back to the kind of dog that was bred right. If you are the guy that's happy with a dog just sitting by your side and maybe tracking a cripple from time to time you probably wouldn't notice much less care because your dog, and most dogs, will do what you want them and thats fine. But there are a few of us out here that know what a real dog works like and that kind of guy is not happy with the type of dogs I described.
 
Originally Posted By: TonyTebbeI've put an intensive training program together, that seems to be working. I feel that those who are sending me a dog to train will be dedicated, as to invest in training a dog. Those are the ones that I want to monitor to see how much the dog is used, moreso than pups going to a new home.

How does someone sending you a dog to train from another breeder help a breeding program more than a pup from a breeding that happened within your program? Im not trying to be smart. I just wanted to know what you can learn about your program of breeding from another breeders dogs that would help you more than knowing what the dogs you turned out are doing?

Originally Posted By: TonyTebbeI've only had 6 or 7 coyotes flare from the sight of the dog over the past couple years. I'll take those odds, as I can't count how many coyotes end up hanging on the hunting rig that would have not been there, if it wasn't for the dog.

Fad? Maybe...maybe not. Only time will tell.

Tony

You have to know those numbers are not the experience of many. I know your a stand up guy but numbers like that to the uninformed will be taken out of context. I know you don't like your dogs to be as aggressive as some but even taking that in to account 6-7 coyotes that have flared over 2 years of almost daily hunting is incredible. Some guys will read that and think "Hey, I would love to call in every coyote out there. I need me a decoy dog." And the reality of the situation is that very few will have that exp during general fur season with a dog. During denning season not many coyotes will leave, sure they will run aways but the dogs are usually able to work them back in. That sure is not the exp. of many during the fur season though.

Did you work decoy dogs in IA? What were your exp. with them there?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't put out quality dogs or train quality dogs or lay the smack down on coyotes because you seem to do all those things. You really seem to have the passion for these dogs and that is never a bad thing and a real motivator to do your best by the dogs and the guys who buy them from you.

As far as training a decoy dog to decoy...It's like training a pointer to point. Most either have it in them or they don't. You can and should yard train, socialize and obiedience train the heck out of them but when it comes to the dog actually working coyotes, the only way to find out is to get out there and put some coyotes in front of the dog. I think that is were guys like Tony and Duanne really excel. They get out and hunt and hunt hard. On top of that they are willing to take your dog and get out and hunt hard and put coyotes in front of the dog.

As I said before, I come from the denning side of decoy dogs. It used to be the only side of them. I have no fear of competition but denning and denners by the very nature of what we do are very secretive and that translates over into most of my fur catching and hunting. I know I probably came across that way but I didn't intend to. I have nothing against anyone in decoy dogs unless they don't have the betterment of the dogs and having a great time in the fore front of their mind.
 
It does seem like a fad to me. People read online how good decoy dogs work. They look on ksl or some other site and find one. Take the dog out and don't get any better results. then they will only use the dog very seldomly if ever. Pretty soon these types will give up on it and move on. It seems like most people only want what works right now the best. and they don't want to put in work to reach goals. I think it will fade out again.

I take my cur out with me alot. not as much as I should to benefit her. She is most happy just out running around. Which is fine with me. I never got her as a decoy dog or hunting dog just a companion in the field. She was from mountain lion hunting stock. But the guy didn't want to keep her so I took her instead of him taking her to the pound. I wish I could find some help I would love to turn her into a den dog. She does have the spirit and grit in her. good luck hunting fellas
 
DTOM,

You asked, how does someone sending a dog from another breeder to be trained help a breeding program more than a pup from a breeding that happened within your program?

I really don't think it has anything to do with my breeding program, at all. I look at my breeding program as something totally different than my training program. If a foreign dog shows interests in coyotes, I will do my best to train him to his potential. He might turned out better or subpar to what dogs I'm producing on the ranch. Either way, my goal is to put as many coyotes in front of that dog, at the same time as, working on discipline.

As far as a breeding program, I'm experimenting with different crosses to mix in what I see missing in a specific dog. It's something I've always done with catch dogs, when I breed greyhound crosses, back in Illinois. I ended up with a greyhound/wolfhound/pit cross that worked best for what I was doing, at the time. I'm really trying to improve on decoy dogs in my little corner of the world, to best suit what my needs are in a working dog.

As far as the numbers of 6-7 coyotes flaring from my dogs...it's a very accurate number. I had 2 flare from Gunner and 5 flare from Dixie. Dixie is more aggressive and bolts after a coyote when she sees it. She is young and hasn't learned to charge only when given the command. That was all last spring and I'm just starting to work her back into stands this spring. We'll see if she's learned anything this weekend, as I've got a client.

I know those may sound as unrealistic numbers, but they are what they are. I've got tight control of my dogs and don't let them run ramped on stands. To me, it's more of a safety decision, based on what I do for a living. Every week, there is a different hunter on stand. I'd rather not have an accidental shooting of a dog that runs in front of the line of fire.

Ok...I'm getting long winded and I need to get ready to go night calling.

Thanks...


Tony
 
This is a great discussion.
I'll throw in my "two pennies"
I don't think decoy dogs are a fad, becuase they have been used, and used successfully, for many years.I had the chance to visit with an oldman a few years ago, he was using an Airdale ,for decoy work, and denning in the 60's.(spent two months with him, guiding fishermen on the river,what an opportunity, but thats another story.)
I do though think the new found popularity will fade.
There are lots of year old, and older decoy dogs, for sale or free, because guys decided for one reason or another, a dog was not an asset.
I have to agree with what some others have said, dogs are the biggest asset now thru August for me.I kill the largest part of my coyotes for the whole year, in just a few months.
Maybe thats why I got started with the decoy dogs, or maybe the dogs are why I kill more coyotes???????
(By the way in some states "denning" is not legal)
I use dogs year round, with the exception of a few stands.
My dogs will dam sure "flare" a timid yote from time to time.But thats part of the trade off with what I want out of my dogs. I have tried,and am still working on dogs that consistenly range 300, 400, 500, 600 yards. In this big country, thats what I want. But I also hunt the close ranging dogs, in the thick brush.
Now I'm gettin long winded.
 
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