hot barrels
- Thread starter smokem
- Start date
Smokem, I'll jump in with my 2 cents worth.
I can't remember where I heard, or read it, but somewhere along the line I've come up with the idea that if you can hold your hand on the barrel for 10 seconds the temp is below 180 degrees. This is what I use while shooting. It may be a completely lame idea, but if I can hold it that long it certainly can't be but so hot.
For all I know a barrel can stand twice that temp before shots are affected, but that's what I use as a standard.
I can't remember where I heard, or read it, but somewhere along the line I've come up with the idea that if you can hold your hand on the barrel for 10 seconds the temp is below 180 degrees. This is what I use while shooting. It may be a completely lame idea, but if I can hold it that long it certainly can't be but so hot.
For all I know a barrel can stand twice that temp before shots are affected, but that's what I use as a standard.
wnroscoe
New member
The type of barrel you have, Factory or Custom, will make a difference if you’re asking about their temperature range and accuracy levels. Also, is this question aimed at your range time or field use?
Factory Barrels are not stress relieved, when they heat up to a certain temp. Your POI will shift from shot to shot. One of my .308's will start to shift its POI after 10 rounds when air temps outside are 70*+.
Custom Barrels are stress relieved and high power shooters report that their barrels can get "Branding Iron" hot and not shift its POI. I doubt their barrels are that hot but I bet you can’t touch them after their string of fire.
I know of a guy that competed with a 6.5x284 at one of the Texas matches. His friend also competed with the same rifle, on the same day, on the relay right after him. After the match was over they drove back to Dallas and had dinner. When they arrived at the shop the barrel was still very hot to the touch. They took First and second place in the match. The barrel was a 6.5 Krieger Barrel. I wouldn’t get my barrels that hot but this may give you an idea as what to expect from a barrel. Good luck.
Factory Barrels are not stress relieved, when they heat up to a certain temp. Your POI will shift from shot to shot. One of my .308's will start to shift its POI after 10 rounds when air temps outside are 70*+.
Custom Barrels are stress relieved and high power shooters report that their barrels can get "Branding Iron" hot and not shift its POI. I doubt their barrels are that hot but I bet you can’t touch them after their string of fire.
I know of a guy that competed with a 6.5x284 at one of the Texas matches. His friend also competed with the same rifle, on the same day, on the relay right after him. After the match was over they drove back to Dallas and had dinner. When they arrived at the shop the barrel was still very hot to the touch. They took First and second place in the match. The barrel was a 6.5 Krieger Barrel. I wouldn’t get my barrels that hot but this may give you an idea as what to expect from a barrel. Good luck.
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ColoradoOsprey
New member
Quote:
If you can't keep your hand wrapped around the barrel it is too hot.
I agree...if you can keep your hand on it....it can't be too hot to shoot.
I have used this method for years...and I haven't burnt up any barrels yet.
If you can't keep your hand wrapped around the barrel it is too hot.
I agree...if you can keep your hand on it....it can't be too hot to shoot.
I have used this method for years...and I haven't burnt up any barrels yet.
Evil_Lurker
New member
I've seen Mini-14 and M-60 machine gun barrels so hot the oil smoked off of them. The M-60 came with an asbestos glove so you could grab it for a barrel change, it was "branding iron" hot after 400 or 500 rounds of fire. Neither one was damaged by this temperature (the Mini-14 still was capable of 4 MOA after this) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
A blued barrel might discolor after reaching an elevated temperature, but it doesn't cause any actual barrel damage. Parkerized barrels don't seem to show any signs of discoloring.
If you can hold your hand on it for 10 seconds, it's not even 180 degrees, that would be hotter than straight hot water from your home water heater. I'd guess you're closer to 140.
Lightly oil the outside of your barrel, and when it starts smoking, give it a break.
A blued barrel might discolor after reaching an elevated temperature, but it doesn't cause any actual barrel damage. Parkerized barrels don't seem to show any signs of discoloring.
If you can hold your hand on it for 10 seconds, it's not even 180 degrees, that would be hotter than straight hot water from your home water heater. I'd guess you're closer to 140.
Lightly oil the outside of your barrel, and when it starts smoking, give it a break.
gube204
New member
Here is an example of guys going to the extreme for high volume shooting.
http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2433
http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2433
wnroscoe
New member
Quote:
Here is an example of guys going to the extreme for high volume shooting.
http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2433
Now thats a cool setup /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Here is an example of guys going to the extreme for high volume shooting.
http://www.rugerhunting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2433
Now thats a cool setup /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I am a firm believer in the warm to the touch principle for my PD rifles. Std hunting rifle never get that hot. The fastest way to ruin a barrel in my opinion is to heat it up bad. For shooting matches, it does not matter as it is gonna get hot and I mean hot! As long as POI stays the same here not a problem.
We took a couple of Steyr SBS's in .308 and shot them until they were really hot to see what would happen. To our surprise, they would shoot as good as when cold at 300 yds.
We took a couple of Steyr SBS's in .308 and shot them until they were really hot to see what would happen. To our surprise, they would shoot as good as when cold at 300 yds.
jagrdawger
New member
Neither one was damaged by this temperature (the Mini-14 still was capable of 4 MOA after this) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I assume a bore scope was used to determine wear before and after the firings. Keep in mind that most military barrels are chrome lined. That means less wear and for sure less accuracy. The average military pop-up target is about 16" wide and accuracy is judged by hit or miss.
If heat does not burn up barrels then the long range 6.5x284 shooters would not be buying so many.
I like the touch rule too.
Several years ago I saw a whatchamacallit in Cabela's that used a bore guide with a valve system to a CO2 tank for cooling barrels. Interesting idea that I should have bought for the princely sum of $9. Oh Well.
I assume a bore scope was used to determine wear before and after the firings. Keep in mind that most military barrels are chrome lined. That means less wear and for sure less accuracy. The average military pop-up target is about 16" wide and accuracy is judged by hit or miss.
If heat does not burn up barrels then the long range 6.5x284 shooters would not be buying so many.
I like the touch rule too.
Several years ago I saw a whatchamacallit in Cabela's that used a bore guide with a valve system to a CO2 tank for cooling barrels. Interesting idea that I should have bought for the princely sum of $9. Oh Well.
Evil_Lurker
New member
Quote:
I like the touch rule too.
That's fine, but if you can touch it, it's not close to being hot enough to have any effect. If it sears the skin on your fingers white when you touch it, it's getting hot.
Do you think that baking your barrel at 350 degrees in an oven would cause any negative effects on it?
I don't.
Keeping it at a maximum temperature that you can handle certainly won't hurt anything, but that's not "hot" by any means.
Quote:
I assume a bore scope was used to determine wear before and after the firings.
The military has bore scopes? I never saw one. I know the barrel was put back into rotation and used again after it cooled down, so the armorers didn't think it was ruined. The M-60 does fire from an open bolt, that would be my biggest concern in getting a barrel really hot, cook-offs.
I like the touch rule too.
That's fine, but if you can touch it, it's not close to being hot enough to have any effect. If it sears the skin on your fingers white when you touch it, it's getting hot.
Do you think that baking your barrel at 350 degrees in an oven would cause any negative effects on it?
I don't.
Keeping it at a maximum temperature that you can handle certainly won't hurt anything, but that's not "hot" by any means.
Quote:
I assume a bore scope was used to determine wear before and after the firings.
The military has bore scopes? I never saw one. I know the barrel was put back into rotation and used again after it cooled down, so the armorers didn't think it was ruined. The M-60 does fire from an open bolt, that would be my biggest concern in getting a barrel really hot, cook-offs.
Quote:
Do you think that baking your barrel at 350 degrees in an oven would cause any negative effects on it?
I don't.
Keeping it at a maximum temperature that you can handle certainly won't hurt anything, but that's not "hot" by any means.
Simple heat is not what causes the problems. It is the fact that metal becomes more malleable as the temps increase. This in turn allows throat cutting to occur faster. The hot gasses from the powder will wash away hot steel faster than it will wash away cold steel
Do you think that baking your barrel at 350 degrees in an oven would cause any negative effects on it?
I don't.
Keeping it at a maximum temperature that you can handle certainly won't hurt anything, but that's not "hot" by any means.
Simple heat is not what causes the problems. It is the fact that metal becomes more malleable as the temps increase. This in turn allows throat cutting to occur faster. The hot gasses from the powder will wash away hot steel faster than it will wash away cold steel
Evil_Lurker
New member
Quote:
The hot gasses from the powder will wash away hot steel faster than it will wash away cold steel
Yes, but you're talking a temperature that's red hot before that starts to occur. Steel melts at around 2500 degrees F. and stainless at around 2600.
Here's the recommendations of an "expert" avoiding barrel erosion:
"So the following recommendations may be made to reduce heat checking in a bore, and thus extend barrel life:
1) in extended firing (e.g., highpower and long range competition and prairie dog shooting) keep the barrel warm; keep the number of cool-to-hot-to-cool cycles as low as possible; rack the rifle in the hot sun between relays;
2) if the outer surface of the barrel becomes too hot to touch, cool it down to where it can be handled—this to reduce the nitridation reaction on firing;
3) do not run any coolant down a hot bore: that would give thermal shock and induce cracking;
4) preheat the bore before firing: set the rifle in the sun, run boiling water down the bore, put a heated rod in the rear part of the barrel—anything to raise the temperature of the surface of the throat prior to firing and reduce thermal shock; and:
5) use a rifle configuration that maximizes heat flow from the barrel to the surrounding air: enlarge the barrel channel in a conventionally bedded rifle; use a bedding block set-up that exposes most of the barrel; set a M700 Remington barreled action in one of Sinclair International's ( PS advertizer) new aluminum F-Class stocks; perhaps flute and then stress-relieve (at 1,000 o -1,100 o F) thick match barrels; or other method."
web page
The hot gasses from the powder will wash away hot steel faster than it will wash away cold steel
Yes, but you're talking a temperature that's red hot before that starts to occur. Steel melts at around 2500 degrees F. and stainless at around 2600.
Here's the recommendations of an "expert" avoiding barrel erosion:
"So the following recommendations may be made to reduce heat checking in a bore, and thus extend barrel life:
1) in extended firing (e.g., highpower and long range competition and prairie dog shooting) keep the barrel warm; keep the number of cool-to-hot-to-cool cycles as low as possible; rack the rifle in the hot sun between relays;
2) if the outer surface of the barrel becomes too hot to touch, cool it down to where it can be handled—this to reduce the nitridation reaction on firing;
3) do not run any coolant down a hot bore: that would give thermal shock and induce cracking;
4) preheat the bore before firing: set the rifle in the sun, run boiling water down the bore, put a heated rod in the rear part of the barrel—anything to raise the temperature of the surface of the throat prior to firing and reduce thermal shock; and:
5) use a rifle configuration that maximizes heat flow from the barrel to the surrounding air: enlarge the barrel channel in a conventionally bedded rifle; use a bedding block set-up that exposes most of the barrel; set a M700 Remington barreled action in one of Sinclair International's ( PS advertizer) new aluminum F-Class stocks; perhaps flute and then stress-relieve (at 1,000 o -1,100 o F) thick match barrels; or other method."
web page
wnroscoe
New member
Here's a thought, if going to a prarrie dog town where extended rates of fire will or can occur, take a second or third rifle. If you fire enough rounds down a 22 tube that you can’t touch it, you've fired a fair amount of ammo. or you can just use this;
t=_blank]http://i13.tinypic.com/2upw9ic.jpg[/url]
Bartlein Barrel on an UnderTaker stock by Richard's Custom Rifles
The barrel is a 30 Cal.; 15 twist 1.250" x 30" chambered in .300wsm custom and
is shooting 2 3/4" groups at 710 yds. with Hornady Vmax 110 gr bullets at 4200fps.
Sometimes, throat errosion and barrel wear dont matter
t=_blank]http://i13.tinypic.com/2upw9ic.jpg[/url]
Bartlein Barrel on an UnderTaker stock by Richard's Custom Rifles
The barrel is a 30 Cal.; 15 twist 1.250" x 30" chambered in .300wsm custom and
is shooting 2 3/4" groups at 710 yds. with Hornady Vmax 110 gr bullets at 4200fps.
Sometimes, throat errosion and barrel wear dont matter
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Evil Lurker, very interesting information and web page, Thanks for posting.
That explains the barrel checking, Have they done any test on throat erosion. When I view my 22-250 AI through a bore scope, I get both of those details. It is a CM barrel that has been heated and cooled quite a few times. When I view my swift, with a S/S barrel, It only has the throat erosion. Both have been in the same environments and app. the same amount of rounds. Could it be the types of metals used?
That explains the barrel checking, Have they done any test on throat erosion. When I view my 22-250 AI through a bore scope, I get both of those details. It is a CM barrel that has been heated and cooled quite a few times. When I view my swift, with a S/S barrel, It only has the throat erosion. Both have been in the same environments and app. the same amount of rounds. Could it be the types of metals used?
jagrdawger
New member
Quote:
The military has bore scopes? I never saw one.
Sure the military has bore scopes. They bore scope everything from M16 to 155MM howitzer. They are typically found at higher level maintenance units for period checks.
Most "armorers" have been through very little actual gunsmithing. They learn how to do a few minor repairs. Most of their time is spent learning the massive amounts of paper work and accountability required to run an arms room. They are definitely NOT qualified to determine throat erosion. If you never served in a high level maint. unit or took a weapon there to be coded out then you never saw anyone qualified or authorized to determine serviceablility. Again, the military standards aof accuracy and tolerance have no correlation to the standards of this forum until you talk snipers or special operations.
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The M-60 does fire from an open bolt, that would be my biggest concern in getting a barrel really hot, cook-offs.
An open bolt does not load a round until the trigger is squeezed so they are safer to fire when hot and used in full autos for that very reason. An open bolt facilitates air flow and cooling. M16/M4's use a closed bolt and they will cook off.
The military has bore scopes? I never saw one.
Sure the military has bore scopes. They bore scope everything from M16 to 155MM howitzer. They are typically found at higher level maintenance units for period checks.
Most "armorers" have been through very little actual gunsmithing. They learn how to do a few minor repairs. Most of their time is spent learning the massive amounts of paper work and accountability required to run an arms room. They are definitely NOT qualified to determine throat erosion. If you never served in a high level maint. unit or took a weapon there to be coded out then you never saw anyone qualified or authorized to determine serviceablility. Again, the military standards aof accuracy and tolerance have no correlation to the standards of this forum until you talk snipers or special operations.
Quote:
The M-60 does fire from an open bolt, that would be my biggest concern in getting a barrel really hot, cook-offs.
An open bolt does not load a round until the trigger is squeezed so they are safer to fire when hot and used in full autos for that very reason. An open bolt facilitates air flow and cooling. M16/M4's use a closed bolt and they will cook off.
Evil_Lurker
New member
Quote:
M16/M4's use a closed bolt and they will cook off.
Yes, they would be susceptible to that. Have you ever seen one actually cook off? I haven't, and I've seen some with pretty hot barrels that would take the skin off your hand.
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They are typically found at higher level maintenance units for period checks.
Ah, no wonder I never saw one, I was in the primitive conditions.
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the military standards aof accuracy and tolerance have no correlation to the standards of this forum until you talk snipers or special operations.
I guess you're right. I still shot some pretty nice groups with those old M16A1s and the M-60 would dig a hole at 300 yards if you could control your bursts and relax. I wouldn't exactly call either one of them scatter guns, and they had been heavily abused if your standard is "hot to the touch".
They were not "sniper grade" weapons, but most of us were not sniper grade shooters, either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
M16/M4's use a closed bolt and they will cook off.
Yes, they would be susceptible to that. Have you ever seen one actually cook off? I haven't, and I've seen some with pretty hot barrels that would take the skin off your hand.
Quote:
They are typically found at higher level maintenance units for period checks.
Ah, no wonder I never saw one, I was in the primitive conditions.
Quote:
the military standards aof accuracy and tolerance have no correlation to the standards of this forum until you talk snipers or special operations.
I guess you're right. I still shot some pretty nice groups with those old M16A1s and the M-60 would dig a hole at 300 yards if you could control your bursts and relax. I wouldn't exactly call either one of them scatter guns, and they had been heavily abused if your standard is "hot to the touch".
They were not "sniper grade" weapons, but most of us were not sniper grade shooters, either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
jagrdawger
New member
Yes, I have seen them cook off a couple of times. Most notible was one with blanks after alot of firing during a fighting road march. The operator was holding it by the barrel similar to parade rest. When it started cooking off it was like a pogo stick with a full mag. 30 hops later it fell over. The other times were on live fire assault ranges after some pretty heavy firing and then setting hot for a bit and only one round fired. Not often, but yes I have seen it.
I spent my time in primitive conditions with 101st, 2ID and 10th Mtn. But, when something like one of my 105mm's or small arms needs coding out I found my way to DS maint. It was just part of the job.
If I was shooting to save my hide it could be red hot for all I care, but when I have to pay the rebarrel bill too hot to touch is too hot and warm is time to fire another group.
16.5 years active, still serving and looking for 2010. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I spent my time in primitive conditions with 101st, 2ID and 10th Mtn. But, when something like one of my 105mm's or small arms needs coding out I found my way to DS maint. It was just part of the job.
If I was shooting to save my hide it could be red hot for all I care, but when I have to pay the rebarrel bill too hot to touch is too hot and warm is time to fire another group.
16.5 years active, still serving and looking for 2010. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Evil_Lurker
New member
Quote:
Both have been in the same environments and app. the same amount of rounds. Could it be the types of metals used?
This article did go into the differences in cracking seen between chrome-moly and stainless barrels, I believe. The writer also stated that he could often restore a "shot out" barrel by recutting the chamber and crown.
web page
Enjoy!
Both have been in the same environments and app. the same amount of rounds. Could it be the types of metals used?
This article did go into the differences in cracking seen between chrome-moly and stainless barrels, I believe. The writer also stated that he could often restore a "shot out" barrel by recutting the chamber and crown.
web page
Enjoy!