Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
I figured the lawsuit would at some point be launched.
Which I had hoped that they, whomever it was, did so in a polished manner vs a knee jerk fueled with emotions.
I have given a lot of time and consideration to how the attack should be centered. And they (GOA, etc) once again are nowhere close to my thoughts and opinions. Not that I have ever attended law school or even professed to be a lawyer.
After much digging research into this filing, I finally at great pain found the filing in the fifth circuit. Giving it a read I settled on the prayer for relief to discuss.
To wit I quote :
"PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs’ request that this court enter the following relief:
A. Declare that the NFA’s registration and transfer requirements pertaining to untaxed firearms exceed Congress’s enumerated powers.
B. Enjoin Defendants and their employees, agents, successors, or any other person acting in concert with them, from implementing, enforcing, or otherwise acting under the authority of the NFA with respect to untaxed firearms.
C. Award Plaintiffs their reasonable costs, including attorney fees.
D. Grant Plaintiffs any and all such other and further relief to which they are justly entitled at law and in equity.
Dated: July 4, 2025 "
sounds great right if won on it's merits ??? Not so fast Buckwheat before you do your victory dance to the tune of "the big bad witch is dead" from the Wizard of OZ......
Here is my question where does this filing if won on it's merits prevent a administration from simply re-applying the tax ? Through the very same reconciliation process that was used to remove it? Just remember just how close the bill passed, and if it could have passed without being a "rider" your ever so wrong. I doubt many voted for it just for the elimination of the tax, they do so for the other gains.
A simple majority is all that is needed. Now we are back to square 1, as now it is taxed items the court ruling in null and void.
One needs to remember the main purpose of those ATF forms 1 through 5 is a tax record!!! If you mandate that they (Federal Government expunges the records within the NFRTR, guess what NO TAX RECORDS, this is stupid and excessively reckless IMO, luckily right now the verbiage in the reduction of the taxes is that the taxes have been paid means the Government has not vacated it's tax authority. Merely reduced it to zero, resulting in a tax record ). I fully understand many oppose the list as it has, and will be continued to be used illegally, instead of what it's intended purpose of recording taxes paid. But painful fact is it's the only proof we have.
No Tax record well folks your ON the HOOK for the new tax amount when reconciliation is done at a much higher fee. Be that in the following administration or later. In order to file something to prevent the Congress from doing so. There must be INJURY, if the case is won on the merits above that means there is no injury,. Thus we would have to endure a injury to file to challenge the constitutionality, in other words be criminals, or have paid the tax.
Unless the decision at the Supreme court level reverses the constitutionality of placing a tax on private ownership of a arm. I severely doubt me, nor my heirs will ever see that day.
The other option is a 2/3s' majority for a Constitutional Amendment limiting (elimination) the taxation of firearms aka Arms at the private level. In other words a complete reversal of established policy.
The NFA WAS GUTTED at one point in Haynes v. United States (1968) , thus the CGA of 1968 came into effect shoring up the original NFA as it was ruled as un enforceable due to the Act was a blatant violation's of the fifth amendment.
Couple that defeat with the assassinations of the Kennedy brothers on national TV, MLK, etc as well as other "peaceful" demonstrations, actually riots at the time. Led to a far more overreaching effect, a Government which now started to mistrust and ever so slightly fear it's own citizens as they sought to take back power.
Which Congress replied with a vengeance. elimination of mail order firearm purchase, establishing licensees, creating a new department with the US Treasury called ATF, listing prohibited persons, Prohibiting importation of certain firearms e.g. Walther PPK's, certain RG pistols listed as "Saturday night specials" just mention a small tidbit of what was one. The CGA of 1968 has ben shored up multiple times since it's passage. Even when we as Gun Owners (and gun dealers) desired protection from overreach by the ATF, the answer was the FOPA of 1986, with one clause the prohibited the new manufacture of machineguns via form 1.
If we can actually get the clause that prohibits manufacture for the public removed first from FOPA. Then the CGA of 1968 (Title II)
I am of the opinion that the FOPA needs amendment first, Then attack the (latter) provisions of the CGA of 1968 and work from newest to oldest we would be better served.
So your asking how did the GCA of 68 shore up the NFA of 1934? Simple:
So outside comments fueled by emotions, which I have attempted to refrain from (which would probably may have created a new list for DOJ, which I would be the founding member of with my comments).
What are your comments, observations as a layman?
While I may be viewed in many differing lights for posting this academic discussion, understand I am attempting to be realistic in my communication containing a message of caution.
look before you leap
don't jump outta the frying pan into the fire
the area is mined and laden with boobytraps
sometimes it's best to let sleeping dog lie
The Indians won a great victory at Little Big Horn. Only to lose at Wounded Knee and later regulated to below a 10th class citizen. Let us not repeat history.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world
IF I could fix this, trust me I would. There is a easy way, but it involves 2/3 majority.
added after posting
waiting actually expecting to be flamed on this but I feel it's important to caution folks
Which I had hoped that they, whomever it was, did so in a polished manner vs a knee jerk fueled with emotions.
I have given a lot of time and consideration to how the attack should be centered. And they (GOA, etc) once again are nowhere close to my thoughts and opinions. Not that I have ever attended law school or even professed to be a lawyer.
After much digging research into this filing, I finally at great pain found the filing in the fifth circuit. Giving it a read I settled on the prayer for relief to discuss.
To wit I quote :
"PRAYER FOR RELIEF
WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs’ request that this court enter the following relief:
A. Declare that the NFA’s registration and transfer requirements pertaining to untaxed firearms exceed Congress’s enumerated powers.
B. Enjoin Defendants and their employees, agents, successors, or any other person acting in concert with them, from implementing, enforcing, or otherwise acting under the authority of the NFA with respect to untaxed firearms.
C. Award Plaintiffs their reasonable costs, including attorney fees.
D. Grant Plaintiffs any and all such other and further relief to which they are justly entitled at law and in equity.
Dated: July 4, 2025 "
sounds great right if won on it's merits ??? Not so fast Buckwheat before you do your victory dance to the tune of "the big bad witch is dead" from the Wizard of OZ......
Here is my question where does this filing if won on it's merits prevent a administration from simply re-applying the tax ? Through the very same reconciliation process that was used to remove it? Just remember just how close the bill passed, and if it could have passed without being a "rider" your ever so wrong. I doubt many voted for it just for the elimination of the tax, they do so for the other gains.
A simple majority is all that is needed. Now we are back to square 1, as now it is taxed items the court ruling in null and void.
One needs to remember the main purpose of those ATF forms 1 through 5 is a tax record!!! If you mandate that they (Federal Government expunges the records within the NFRTR, guess what NO TAX RECORDS, this is stupid and excessively reckless IMO, luckily right now the verbiage in the reduction of the taxes is that the taxes have been paid means the Government has not vacated it's tax authority. Merely reduced it to zero, resulting in a tax record ). I fully understand many oppose the list as it has, and will be continued to be used illegally, instead of what it's intended purpose of recording taxes paid. But painful fact is it's the only proof we have.
No Tax record well folks your ON the HOOK for the new tax amount when reconciliation is done at a much higher fee. Be that in the following administration or later. In order to file something to prevent the Congress from doing so. There must be INJURY, if the case is won on the merits above that means there is no injury,. Thus we would have to endure a injury to file to challenge the constitutionality, in other words be criminals, or have paid the tax.
Unless the decision at the Supreme court level reverses the constitutionality of placing a tax on private ownership of a arm. I severely doubt me, nor my heirs will ever see that day.
The other option is a 2/3s' majority for a Constitutional Amendment limiting (elimination) the taxation of firearms aka Arms at the private level. In other words a complete reversal of established policy.
The NFA WAS GUTTED at one point in Haynes v. United States (1968) , thus the CGA of 1968 came into effect shoring up the original NFA as it was ruled as un enforceable due to the Act was a blatant violation's of the fifth amendment.
Couple that defeat with the assassinations of the Kennedy brothers on national TV, MLK, etc as well as other "peaceful" demonstrations, actually riots at the time. Led to a far more overreaching effect, a Government which now started to mistrust and ever so slightly fear it's own citizens as they sought to take back power.
Which Congress replied with a vengeance. elimination of mail order firearm purchase, establishing licensees, creating a new department with the US Treasury called ATF, listing prohibited persons, Prohibiting importation of certain firearms e.g. Walther PPK's, certain RG pistols listed as "Saturday night specials" just mention a small tidbit of what was one. The CGA of 1968 has ben shored up multiple times since it's passage. Even when we as Gun Owners (and gun dealers) desired protection from overreach by the ATF, the answer was the FOPA of 1986, with one clause the prohibited the new manufacture of machineguns via form 1.
If we can actually get the clause that prohibits manufacture for the public removed first from FOPA. Then the CGA of 1968 (Title II)
I am of the opinion that the FOPA needs amendment first, Then attack the (latter) provisions of the CGA of 1968 and work from newest to oldest we would be better served.
So your asking how did the GCA of 68 shore up the NFA of 1934? Simple:
- Addressing the self-incrimination issue: The Supreme Court case of Haynes v. United States (1968) highlighted a constitutional issue with the NFA's requirement for individuals to register unregistered firearms, potentially violating the Fifth Amendment's protection against self-incrimination. The GCA addressed this by removing the requirement to register unregistered firearms and prohibiting the use of NFA application or registration information as evidence in criminal proceedings related to violations prior to or concurrent with filing.
- Expanding the scope of the NFA: The GCA expanded the definition of "firearm" under the NFA to include destructive devices, machine gun frames or receivers, and machine gun conversion kits.
- Restricting registration and transfer: The GCA limited NFA weapon registration to manufacturers, makers, and importers. Private citizens can only possess, sell, and transfer NFA weapons that were already registered before the GCA was enacted.
- Amnesty period: The GCA included a 30-day amnesty period after its effective date (October 22, 1968) allowing registration of unregistered firearms in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) without penalty.
So outside comments fueled by emotions, which I have attempted to refrain from (which would probably may have created a new list for DOJ, which I would be the founding member of with my comments).
What are your comments, observations as a layman?
While I may be viewed in many differing lights for posting this academic discussion, understand I am attempting to be realistic in my communication containing a message of caution.
look before you leap
don't jump outta the frying pan into the fire
the area is mined and laden with boobytraps
sometimes it's best to let sleeping dog lie
The Indians won a great victory at Little Big Horn. Only to lose at Wounded Knee and later regulated to below a 10th class citizen. Let us not repeat history.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world
IF I could fix this, trust me I would. There is a easy way, but it involves 2/3 majority.
added after posting
waiting actually expecting to be flamed on this but I feel it's important to caution folks
Last edited:
