Long Range vs. Short Range
- Thread starter RemVSSF
- Start date
stiff neck
New member
The only difference between 100 yards and 300 yards, is 200 yards. Really.
It's probably the shooter's fault freaking out about the distance, or shooting at too small of a target. Figure out what type of target you like at 100 yards, then blow it up for use at 300 yards. Don't try to shoot a dime at 300 yards, it's hard. Use a bigger target.
Or Possibly the bullet. You didn't say what caliber or velocity etc.
It's probably the shooter's fault freaking out about the distance, or shooting at too small of a target. Figure out what type of target you like at 100 yards, then blow it up for use at 300 yards. Don't try to shoot a dime at 300 yards, it's hard. Use a bigger target.
Or Possibly the bullet. You didn't say what caliber or velocity etc.
dan newberry
New member
If you spin a light bullet too fast, groups can open up very noticeably at longer ranges. Most guys who shoot 55 grain bullets from .243's end up noticing this sooner or later.
Wind does have a more noticeable effect as range increases, but since you exclude wind in your question, we'll leave that alone...
If your groups are opening up vertically, muzzle velocity differences could also be a problem. You may not see a 100 foot per second spread at 100 yards, but at 300 yards you will.
In many cases, the shooter has simply gone to another shooting discipline, i.e. prone from the ground at 300 yards, whereas he was shooting from a bench at 100 yards--and this may account for the grouping problem.
Scope parallax can cause problems at different ranges. If you're not sure what I'm talking about there, do a search in these pages on "parallax."
Dan
Wind does have a more noticeable effect as range increases, but since you exclude wind in your question, we'll leave that alone...
If your groups are opening up vertically, muzzle velocity differences could also be a problem. You may not see a 100 foot per second spread at 100 yards, but at 300 yards you will.
In many cases, the shooter has simply gone to another shooting discipline, i.e. prone from the ground at 300 yards, whereas he was shooting from a bench at 100 yards--and this may account for the grouping problem.
Scope parallax can cause problems at different ranges. If you're not sure what I'm talking about there, do a search in these pages on "parallax."
Dan
Whistlepig Popper
New member
Dan is right about the overstabilization of the lighter bullets. Over stablizing can happen to "normal weight" bullets as well. It happened to me just about 3 weeks ago. I have an 8 twist 22-250 shooting the 68's and it absolutely burns a hole a 100 and it went to **&^* in a handbasket. I somehow had gotten WAY OFF. And I keep very good notes, so I thought.Anway I reduced my load, adjusted the seating depth,and then tuned it at 200 and 325 yards.
Point being, 100 yards hummer loads don't always shoot at longer range. If shooting longer range TUNE the gun at longer range. Sam
Point being, 100 yards hummer loads don't always shoot at longer range. If shooting longer range TUNE the gun at longer range. Sam
The caliber i am referring to is a 22-250. I am shooting 50 grain nosler bt's. From what i understand now, if i am shooting prairie dogs i should probably tune my rifle at the 250-300 yard ranges. OR would going to a 55g bullet maybe change things a bit? Thanks guys
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pachuckhunter
New member
I am interested in this also. Hopefully my gun (.223) will like 55 grain bullets (1:9 twist). Do the 55's "generally" stabilize better at longer ranges such as 200-350 yards than the lighter 40 grain bullets? I am more interested in the size of those longer range groups than just a 1/2" 100 yard group.
Karl
Karl
I have to agree on some loads shooting very well at 100 and not shooting at 300 or so. I believe this to be the bulllet design. Generally, if you are shooting those type of groups at 100 it should do much better than 6" at 300. Generally, 1/2 at 100= 1" at 200 and 2" at 300.
What power scope to you have, what type of rest are you using, and what type of target are you shooting at? This will give me some idea of where to go on this for an answer.
I have seen 40gr bullets shoot very well at 500 yds as well as the heavy ones.
What power scope to you have, what type of rest are you using, and what type of target are you shooting at? This will give me some idea of where to go on this for an answer.
I have seen 40gr bullets shoot very well at 500 yds as well as the heavy ones.
Steve, I am using a sightron 4-16 power scope. I am using a rest that i built myself. It is extremely solid and is made from steel with an adjustable v-style front rest. The rests are padded with carpet. Once i think about what rest i am using, that could be the problem, maybe it is too hard? I am shooting at a crosshair target with a 2 inch square in the center but i have also shot at standard bullseye targets. I agree with you that it should be shooting at MOA with what my results are at 100 yds.
Ok, your scope is pretty good for 300 yd groups but you can only shoot as good as you can see. Your rest sounds good but I would suggest putting some type of sand bag on it. I have seen problems with groups shooting off concrete with a bipod. I guess it had to do with vibration.
My main concern is the targets you are shooting. Too shoot good groups at long range or short range for that matter, the target needs to be as small as possible. I prefer to shoot at dots. If you have a large target with no pinpoint spot to shoot at you can wobble around the target and not be able to tell how much you are moving. Still, you should be able to do better than 6 inches!
I use 20x to 25x optics for load and long range testing. They can see a 1/4" dot at 200. What you need is a aiming point that allows you to see how much movement you have. Also, at 300, you have to take in consideration the wind. It will start effecting at 300 much more than at shorter distances. If the wind is gusting it will move your bullets around. Try to shoot when the wind is at the same speed as you feel it to your face.
Another tip would be use a 1-inch square and turn it so you are looking at a diamond. This allows you to align the crosshairs better.
All in all, your shooting skills have the greatest impact on what groups look like. The longer your range is the better they have to be. Hope this gives you something to think about in an effort to reduce the group sizes. If they still open up to 6 inches, the load needs to be considered.
My main concern is the targets you are shooting. Too shoot good groups at long range or short range for that matter, the target needs to be as small as possible. I prefer to shoot at dots. If you have a large target with no pinpoint spot to shoot at you can wobble around the target and not be able to tell how much you are moving. Still, you should be able to do better than 6 inches!
I use 20x to 25x optics for load and long range testing. They can see a 1/4" dot at 200. What you need is a aiming point that allows you to see how much movement you have. Also, at 300, you have to take in consideration the wind. It will start effecting at 300 much more than at shorter distances. If the wind is gusting it will move your bullets around. Try to shoot when the wind is at the same speed as you feel it to your face.
Another tip would be use a 1-inch square and turn it so you are looking at a diamond. This allows you to align the crosshairs better.
All in all, your shooting skills have the greatest impact on what groups look like. The longer your range is the better they have to be. Hope this gives you something to think about in an effort to reduce the group sizes. If they still open up to 6 inches, the load needs to be considered.
Whistlepig Popper
New member
It helps a great deal to have some "cheap as well"surveyors tape strung up on a metal rod or in a tree limb throughout the course of the range. I can shoot 325 yards behind the house here and I have several windflags that I set up as well as putting the streamers in the tree limbs. I can shoot better WHEN the streamers ar in the trees VS> when they are NOT. Its amazing low much LITTLE wind affects the bullet flight.
If you are able to put the tapes on long metal rods or in the trees, try to shoot when the flags look the same each time. Be patient and wait for it. YOu'll be amazed how much smaller your groups get. Steve has an excellent point. You need to have a dot or a "corner" or edge of something on the target that you can easily put the crosshairs back on.Higher power the scope the better. It may be hard for you to see bullet holes at 300 with a 16X. You should be able to see them at 200 though. Good luck, Sam
If you are able to put the tapes on long metal rods or in the trees, try to shoot when the flags look the same each time. Be patient and wait for it. YOu'll be amazed how much smaller your groups get. Steve has an excellent point. You need to have a dot or a "corner" or edge of something on the target that you can easily put the crosshairs back on.Higher power the scope the better. It may be hard for you to see bullet holes at 300 with a 16X. You should be able to see them at 200 though. Good luck, Sam
Rem vssf,
After reviewing your "barrel heating" prior post etc. And apparently 5 shot by 5 group 100 yard average is really that tight "1/4 - 1/2". Even if it was just moa. It should not go to 6" @ 300 yards.
Your cooling and cleaning practices are sound, wind is not the issue apparently. 50 grain b-tips shoot very well in 22-250's including 300 yards as a whole. Re-loads or factory ? You have a rear bunny ear bag correct ?
Parellax adjusted at 300 ?
I would suggest cleaning well for copper. Then buy a couple boxes of Hornady 50 grain V Max factory ammo from the same lot and head to the range again, shoot two foulers, start at 300 and not 100 yards. Black diamond targets as noted. You may need them a little larger for that scope power depending on it's contrast quality.
After reviewing your "barrel heating" prior post etc. And apparently 5 shot by 5 group 100 yard average is really that tight "1/4 - 1/2". Even if it was just moa. It should not go to 6" @ 300 yards.
Your cooling and cleaning practices are sound, wind is not the issue apparently. 50 grain b-tips shoot very well in 22-250's including 300 yards as a whole. Re-loads or factory ? You have a rear bunny ear bag correct ?
Parellax adjusted at 300 ?
I would suggest cleaning well for copper. Then buy a couple boxes of Hornady 50 grain V Max factory ammo from the same lot and head to the range again, shoot two foulers, start at 300 and not 100 yards. Black diamond targets as noted. You may need them a little larger for that scope power depending on it's contrast quality.
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Well, I sent my scope off, and Sightron sent me a brand new one. They said my previous had a problem with the zero. Today I went out and tested it out. The pic I have is using my 22-250 VSSF with 50g nosler bt and varget. The one is a group at 200 yds that is 0.8" and one at 400 yds that is 3.45". There was a 10-15mph wind so I think it will do better on a calmer day. Also, I still havent found a target that I like to shoot at for distances of 300+ so if anyone wants to share what they are using (a pic or url) I would appreciate it. Thanks
margi
New member
Looking at this target I would say wind drift opened up your group, but I believe you need to add a little powder to your load. This will take care of the up and down stringing. Add powder to your load until you get a clover leaf group. Then you have found the correct amount. Too much powder will string left and right. An old bench rest shooter taught me this and although at first I didn't belive it, it really is true. I work up loads like this all the time and after I do get the cloverleaf, I know that unless I change something else like case, or primer, this will be the best load for that particular powder. Only after I have made those changes will I try another powder and start all over again. Other than that, I have to agree with the other members. Scope paralax can cause shifts in groups, as well as bullet selection. Some bullets "go to sleep" better than others at long ranges. Use flags to indicate wind shifts, and shoot at dots. Remember...aim small, miss small.