More accurate at 200 yards than at 100 yards?

Mongo Mike

Mongo Mike

New member
I was at a public range last weekend, and there was an “expert” in the next booth that tried to impress everyone within earshot with his knowledge of rifles, hunting, and ballistics. Most of his spewing was fairly accurate, but I like to choose the time and place of my enlightenment, and not be a captive audience like I was that day at the range. It was even worse because he wore ear plugs, and shouted constantly.

On to the topic………one thing he told his buddy (and everyone in the same zip code) was that his rifle shot much better groups at 200 yards than at 100 yards. He was shooting a .300 Win Mag, and he said his bullet did not completely stabilize until after 100 yards.

With my limited knowledge of ballistics, I always thought groups were (theoretically) their smallest after about 100 feet from the muzzle, and spread out after that due to all the many variables that occur from shot to shot. I also thought bullets stabilized much sooner that 100+ yards, assuming they were not over or under spun due to incorrect twist rate.

Question 1 - Under optimal conditions, i.e., the right bullet weight with the right twist rate with the right amount and burn rate of powder, how soon does a bullet stabilize during it’s flight.

Question 2 – Is it physically possible for consistent groups (of stabilized bullets) to be smaller at 200 yards than at 100 yards.

Was this guy full of B.S., or what.
 
Sounds to me like he needs to have the floracarbons checked in his .300 Win mag. If they are too high it could have a very adverse effect on the ozone. Now if he was shooting a .243 Win, floracarbons would be the last thing you'd have to worry about. With the .243 Win one needs to start to think about how the henwiegh is going to effect the ballistics of a bullet under 85 grains.

SHUT UP AND SHOOT YOUR RIFLE!
 
Last edited:
ROFL. So.Dak, now someone is going to ask how to remove the floracarbons from the rifle. You should have know better, but i am still laughing
 
Quote:
He was shooting a .300 Win Mag, and he said his bullet did not completely stabilize until after 100 yards.

Question 1 - Under optimal conditions, i.e., the right bullet weight with the right twist rate with the right amount and burn rate of powder, how soon does a bullet stabilize during it’s flight.

Question 2 – Is it physically possible for consistent groups (of stabilized bullets) to be smaller at 200 yards than at 100 yards.

Was this guy full of B.S., or what.





1.Under optimal (rare) conditions a bullet should stabilize very quickly, I would guess within the first 50-100ft depending on the variables.

2.No it’s not possible. Under perfect conditions, shooting a perfect “rail gun” in a tunnel for instance, your groups will be almost exactly twice as large at 200yds as they are at 100yds.

However, in real life it's not that uncommon to have an un-stabilized bullet at 100yds, especially if you are shooting very long bullets from a barrel that does not have a fast enough twist. In this case you will have "slots" in the target instead of clean holes and the “apparent” group size may be larger at 100 than 200yds. The groups are not actually larger of course (if you could measure from center to center of point of balance when the bullets hit) but they will appear that way on a target.

Un-stabilized bullets will also leave an unpredictable (and often very nasty) wound channel. Read up on the battlefield wound experience with the first issued M-16s in Vietnam.

Was the blowhard full of b.s.? maybe. I couldn’t say from experience regarding a 300 WinMag but I would think that any factory rifle in that caliber would be designed for shooting heavy (long) bullets and would stabilize them pretty quickly.
 
Mike,
Don't know what kind of load/bullet he was shooting but there naybe some merit to the 200 yard question. Those with a lot more experience than I have stated that some match bullets will shoot as good or better at 200 as it takes longer for the to get the wobble out. I have not tested this personally but the one who have told me this certainly know what they are doing. Don't know if this was your guys case or he was just full of it. If he was shooting hunting loads, I am sure he was.
 
17shooter,

Everyone knows you have to use Dihydogenmonoxide to remove flourocarbons! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
It can be sort of true.
The VLD bullets frequently take several hundred yards to "go to sleep." It is a common phenomena with long range match shooters and the VLD bullets. They won't shoot smaller groups at longer yardages but will shoot smaller MOA groups. The typical scenario is that a fast twist rifle shooting VLD bullets will shoot a worst case group of 3/4 minute at 100 yards but will shoot a worst case group of 1/2 minute at 300 yards. Quite common, but only with a fast twist barrel shooting the VLD bullets.

For a factory rifle shooting normal bullets, not likely!

Jack
 
I mentioned the go to sleep factor some time back and was told I was dead wrong. But I know its true. You can see it with tracers. Yes there is an optimal velocity with the twist rate per bullet,per bbl. I have said it many times that a bullet will be crappy at 100yds and the same or better at 300. Go figure. If you shoot and load develope enough, you will see it.

jerryboy
 
I think sierra's got a name for the "go2sleep" bullets. forgot what it was called. but if he was shooting a target/comp rifle w/fast twist and long bullets it can happen where the groups at 2-300yds maybe of equal to or better than at 100yds. I don't know if this can imply but I've shot at 600yds with 77gr otms through my bbl mini and there do seems to be some kind of relation between 100yds and 600. at 100yds it'll group less than 1" but at 600 groups at about 4.5-5" on a good day. so then I tried to hit soda cans at 600 and say out of 20rds--18cans would be hit.of...though this I can only do on a calm/cool almost perfect day that way I can see the can and no mirages, no wind. I was very surprised to try out a few shots at 600 with about 20-25mph gust and the 77gr bullets being able to stay on course better without being tossed around like other (regular) bullets. At first, my cousin that was with me didn't think at all that a .224 77gr otm would be able to almost consistantly hit a designated target at that range but as the first shot rang out and I did some compensation to aiming. then the next round lands very near. then the next right on it. then the next right on it and so on. My cousin didn't say a word as he glassed through the 40x scope. from then on he never talked about me not being able to smack a man size target at 6-1k with a .224 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Last edited:
First things first, OK So. Dak, here's your chance: 'What's a HenWeigh?', Now whip it on me!

Second: 'Very High Weird O Rama Factor', had this same discussion on Tues evening w/ a VERY good handloader and shot. He saying that his 27 gr. load was a much tighter group at 200 than his 25 gr load which was a dime at 100 yds. It must happen.
 
I have had a few barrels on BR rifles that showed a fondness for 200-300 yds. I know at least 2 BR shooters that have "200 yd" rifles that they don't shoot at 100 yds.
That being said I doubt whether the factory 300 Win. Mag. would show any measurable difference in accuracy at 200 vs. 100 yds. with the 180gr Sierras.
The 300 Win. Mag. rifles that I build for law enforcement and Highpower Long Range competition quite often shoot 100 yd groups in the low 2's and occasionally the 1's.
 
Have to agree with Steve and Jack on this one. My 22/6mm which shoots very long bullets with a very fast twist barrel actually shoots better at 200 than 100. Depends on what bullet the old chap with the 300 was shooting and his twist rate. Heck , I thought some of my poor groups from my 300 were more due to that punishing recoil than a bullet not stabilizing. Now I have a new excuse,,,, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
My first thought, and actually what I still think, is that this just defies logic. It does defy logic!
If you are shooting a one inch group at 100 yards...and it's because your bullet is not stabilized...then that bullet could be anywhere within that one inch circle when it stabilizes. Now...what in God's name would cause bullets on different points of that circle to all congregate towards the center of the 200 yard circle??? Each point on the circle SHOULD create a (let's call it a) probability cone downrange of the circle. From the point that it goes through the circle at 100 yards the bullet can go up down left or right on it's way to the 200 yard circle. What magical force causes them to go towards the center?
I really need a better explanation than "it stabilizes after 100 yards" to believe this. Stabilizing after 100 yards should make a bigger group at 200, not smaller.
Explain this to me, cause I don't get it.
Jim
 
"Question 1 - Under optimal conditions, i.e., the right bullet weight with the right twist rate with the right amount and burn rate of powder, how soon does a bullet stabilize during it’s flight."

With "optimal conditions" being the qualifier, approx. 15 - 20 calibers. Less than a foot, in other words.

Jack nailed #2 right on the money. And I too have a fast twist/VLD barrel that exhibits precisely the behavior he described.

- DAA
 
Reminds me of one of my friends little brothers. When he got his varmint ar-15 he said that it shot as good or better at 200yds then it did at 100yds. We thought he was full of it, until he let us take it out and shoot it one day.

Sure enough, it did. It shot ~1" at 100yds, and a consistant .75-1" at 200.

Jeff
 
Quote:
First things first, OK So. Dak, here's your chance: 'What's a HenWeigh?', Now whip it on me!

Second: 'Very High Weird O Rama Factor', had this same discussion on Tues evening w/ a VERY good handloader and shot. He saying that his 27 gr. load was a much tighter group at 200 than his 25 gr load which was a dime at 100 yds. It must happen.



'bout 4 or 5 pounnds! haahahahahahahahaha /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Thank you for letting me get that out of my system.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top