N133 Really is King of Speed!

J

Jay Cummings

New member
Been working on a load for my AR with the 53gr vmax. I have tried N133, Benchmark, H322 and plan on trying H4895 and H335 today. So far, nothing is even close to N133 in speed or accuracy. I really thought Benchmark would prove faster than it has but it won't run with the 133. With N133, I started at 24.5gr and it yielded 3270fps and it just seemed like a light load. Accuracy was right .600. Went to 25.0 and velocity picked up to 3350fps and groups were still around .650+. At 25.5grs I was getting 3416fps but groups began to grow. I backed it down to 24.8grs and had 4 shots in .250 and threw my 5th shot that opened group up to .750.

Benchmark has been alot slower and less accurate. Best load so far 26.0gr a with velocity around 3230fps. Really thought BM would be faster and more accurate with all the rave reviews I see on the net.
H322 was so slow and was mediocre on accuracy that I quit after two loads.

Hoping to try H4895 today and see how it does. Is anybody loading 4895 near max? I see hogden list 27.0grs as max for 52gr.
 
The forever accuracy load in BR was 26.6gr of Win 748, behind a 55gr bullet. In an AR, that load will recoil so softly, you will have to visually check whether or not it cycled properly. I personally used 27gr.
The problem with 748 is the contract dispute with Hodgy and Olin. Because of it, the 748 load info was cut in half, and is HORRIBLY low pressure. So you gotta dig into the archives, or get your pressure trace hooked-up.

My issues with Viht powders, is that they burn so stinkin hot. If I wanted to melt my barrel, I'd get the torch out. Also not impressed with their extruded's ability to generate hard carbon.
 
I have used N133 N135 and N530 quite a bit and have never noticed any hard carbon build-up. Now Reloder 10X builds some serious hard carbon that is tough to remove from a barrel.
CFE223,H335 and XTerminator can run pretty close with N133 with the 50-55gr bullets.
 
Originally Posted By: Jay CummingsBeen working on a load for my AR with the 53gr vmax. I have tried N133, Benchmark, H322 and plan on trying H4895 and H335 today. So far, nothing is even close to N133 in speed or accuracy. I really thought Benchmark would prove faster than it has but it won't run with the 133. With N133, I started at 24.5gr and it yielded 3270fps and it just seemed like a light load. Accuracy was right .600. Went to 25.0 and velocity picked up to 3350fps and groups were still around .650+. At 25.5grs I was getting 3416fps but groups began to grow. I backed it down to 24.8grs and had 4 shots in .250 and threw my 5th shot that opened group up to .750.

Benchmark has been alot slower and less accurate. Best load so far 26.0gr a with velocity around 3230fps. Really thought BM would be faster and more accurate with all the rave reviews I see on the net.
H322 was so slow and was mediocre on accuracy that I quit after two loads.

Hoping to try H4895 today and see how it does. Is anybody loading 4895 near max? I see hogden list 27.0grs as max for 52gr.

I dont like VV powder's because of the temp sensitive, I need loads that will shoot good at 10 below and ones that shoot at 85 degrees and I have been able to do that with benchmark in the 223
 
Jay, it sounds like you have achieved good accuracy and high velocities with N133 - good work!

Just curious if you played with lighter Benchmark charges (24-24.5gr)? Also, what is the barrel length & twist?
 
It doesn't really get that cold here but I have not noticed VV powders being any more or less temperature sensitive than Hodgdon extreme powders..... Both manufacturers claim that their powder works well under a wide range of temps but I am not sure I believe the hype from either company. Neither powder is anywhere close to some of the ball powders say H335 for example.
 
Originally Posted By: SmokelessTried any IMR-8208xbr? Won't be the "king of speed" but runs out fast and very accurate. Real temp stable as well.

Concrete solid +1!!
 
Originally Posted By: Ridgeline17Originally Posted By: SmokelessTried any IMR-8208xbr? Won't be the "king of speed" but runs out fast and very accurate. Real temp stable as well.

Concrete solid +1!!
+2
 
Originally Posted By: venaticIt doesn't really get that cold here but I have not noticed VV powders being any more or less temperature sensitive than Hodgdon extreme powders..... Both manufacturers claim that their powder works well under a wide range of temps but I am not sure I believe the hype from either company. Neither powder is anywhere close to some of the ball powders say H335 for example.

The temp extreme crap is ONLY designed for a specific cartridge, and isn't practically real. Dr. Denton Bramwel had debunked the "good for what ails ya" bidness.
As to the practicality, go to Hodgdon's site and read WHAT THEY post. First off, they don't tell you [beeep], but what you will notice, is that over the 140 degree swing, the "extreme" powders beat OLD ball powders by a total of 3 fps(one example)!!!

3 fps IS NOT DIFFERENT, IT IS MARKETING!!!
 
Originally Posted By: DarkkerOriginally Posted By: venaticIt doesn't really get that cold here but I have not noticed VV powders being any more or less temperature sensitive than Hodgdon extreme powders..... Both manufacturers claim that their powder works well under a wide range of temps but I am not sure I believe the hype from either company. Neither powder is anywhere close to some of the ball powders say H335 for example.

The temp extreme crap is ONLY designed for a specific cartridge, and isn't practically real. Dr. Denton Bramwel had debunked the "good for what ails ya" bidness.
As to the practicality, go to Hodgdon's site and read WHAT THEY post. First off, they don't tell you [beeep], but what you will notice, is that over the 140 degree swing, the "extreme" powders beat OLD ball powders by a total of 3 fps(one example)!!!

3 fps IS NOT DIFFERENT, IT IS MARKETING!!!

Throw some on dry ice once then shoot them and see what powders fluctuate the least, Realoader is by far the worst but the hogdons is the least, I have accually noticed this with h380 in my 22-250 worked up a load in the spring and then come summer time it wasnt even close to the same, I gained alot more than 3fps.
 
Again not to argumentative but just to point out the fact that while some Reloder (Alliant Powders) may be worse than others. My example would be Alliant's AR Comp powder which seems to be as good as any out there as far as changing temp's are concerned. I have tried it in a .308 and a 6.5 Creedmore recently and I was getting single digit ES ....... will need some weather changes to get more info_On the other hand Reloder 10X is dirty and seems temp sensitive to me from chrono numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: FishSqueezerJay, it sounds like you have achieved good accuracy and high velocities with N133 - good work!

Just curious if you played with lighter Benchmark charges (24-24.5gr)? Also, what is the barrel length & twist?

Ye, I did try 25gr and 25.5gr. Groups were just not impressive and velocity was around 315o-3200fps. Sometimes you can just tell when a gun doesn't like a certain powder and the rifle just wasn't having any of it, although 26.0gr was 3250fps+ and around 3/4".
Rifle is a 24" 223 with a 1in8 twist.
 
"I dont like VV powder's because of the temp sensitive, I need loads that will shoot good at 10 below and ones that shoot at 85 degrees and I have been able to do that with benchmark in the 223"
EJ,
I hear ya, and I like Hogden extreme powders too. However, I have some experience with VV133 in my 222 and I love it. It may not be "As" stable as hogden but stable enuff because of the wide node. For instance, in my 222, I can load 23.5-24.5gr of 133 and my groups don't change and they even impact the same POA. So, I load in the middle at 24.0gr and push a 50gr vmax along 3350fps out of my deuce. I shoot in temps from 25deg to 90deg and have noticed very little change in this load.I noticed some of this characteristic in my AR as well. From 24.5gr-25.5 POA was the same and the groups only opened a small amount.Pretty forgiving. Yes I know velocity will change some but out to 300yds or so its not gonna make me sweat it. Plus, I can lose 100fps with the VV and still be faster and flatter shooting than the BM load.
 
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I haven't tried any 8208 yet but a friend of mine has some. I might be able to get a small amount to play with since he's not fond of it in his 223.
 
Originally Posted By: Jay Cummings"I dont like VV powder's because of the temp sensitive, I need loads that will shoot good at 10 below and ones that shoot at 85 degrees and I have been able to do that with benchmark in the 223"
EJ,
I hear ya, and I like Hogden extreme powders too. However, I have some experience with VV133 in my 222 and I love it. It may not be "As" stable as hogden but stable enuff because of the wide node. For instance, in my 222, I can load 23.5-24.5gr of 133 and my groups don't change and they even impact the same POA. So, I load in the middle at 24.0gr and push a 50gr vmax along 3350fps out of my deuce. I shoot in temps from 25deg to 90deg and have noticed very little change in this load.I noticed some of this characteristic in my AR as well. From 24.5gr-25.5 POA was the same and the groups only opened a small amount.Pretty forgiving. Yes I know velocity will change some but out to 300yds or so its not gonna make me sweat it. Plus, I can lose 100fps with the VV and still be faster and flatter shooting than the BM load.

And I do realize that some guns are different I have had IMR powders that ran single digit variences through the chrony, I still go by my motto and thats give the gun what it wants, I have a 243 that doesnt seem to like any of the hodgens powders, but I use some of my rifles in 10 below and 90 degrees and it seems the hodgens extreme powders do the best, if I lived in arizona or something it might be a different story but I dont. Just my two cents.
 
Originally Posted By: venatic. My example would be Alliant's AR Comp powder which seems to be as good as any out there as far as changing temp's are concerned. I have tried it in a .308 and a 6.5 Creedmore recently and I was getting single digit ES .......


+1. I need to get mine over a chrony but so far im impressed.
 
Originally Posted By: EJ Reichenbach

Throw some on dry ice once then shoot them and see what powders fluctuate the least, Realoader is by far the worst but the hogdons is the least, I have accually noticed this with h380 in my 22-250 worked up a load in the spring and then come summer time it wasnt even close to the same, I gained alot more than 3fps.

...ok...
Read some of Bramwel's work, the temperature differential in the case/primer Vs. Barrel is where MOST of the variance comes from. Throws a large curve ball into things, when you let things "cook" in the chamber.

380 is a VERY old surplus powder, one that Hodgy doesn't test in the "extreme" testing of the 22-250. Bit of a "tell" in my book. But comparing "new tech" to a WWII surplus isn't exactly an even comparison.
 
Originally Posted By: DarkkerOriginally Posted By: EJ Reichenbach

Throw some on dry ice once then shoot them and see what powders fluctuate the least, Realoader is by far the worst but the hogdons is the least, I have accually noticed this with h380 in my 22-250 worked up a load in the spring and then come summer time it wasnt even close to the same, I gained alot more than 3fps.

...ok...
Read some of Bramwel's work, the temperature differential in the case/primer Vs. Barrel is where MOST of the variance comes from. Throws a large curve ball into things, when you let things "cook" in the chamber.

380 is a VERY old surplus powder, one that Hodgy doesn't test in the "extreme" testing of the 22-250. Bit of a "tell" in my book. But comparing "new tech" to a WWII surplus isn't exactly an even comparison.

I agree with you but every gun acts different and I am just going off what I have seen in the field that is all, I have had loads change in 20 degree difference with IMR and RL powders, but maybe it was just my guns, got a buddy with a 6.5x284 that lover RL22 shoots great up to about 60 degrees then shoot like crap. Thats all I am sayin
 


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