Neck resize or full resize?

kam582

kam582

New member
I got a Lyman reloading manual the other day to add to my Speer and Hornady manuals. I noticed that they recommend that you fully re-size your brass, as opposed to neck resizing. I have been neck sizing for my Savage Model 10 bolt gun, and fully resizing for the AR. Now I am a little confused. I was under the impression that neck sizing for the bolt gun would help my accuracy a smidgen. Should I be fully resizing for both guns?
 
Keep doing what your doing. After a while if the brass gets a little snug for your bolt rifles you may need to fl resize and trim. Good luck and have fun.
 
I like FL sizing for a number of reasons...BUT if the neck sizer also bumps the shoulder back and also bottoms firmly against the shell holder with no breakover in the press, either FL or NK will work. You can also "fit" a FL sizer to a fired case(the chamber in other words) and reduce the amount of case sizing to no more than about 0.002" by polishing the inside of the sizer die and using Redding Comp shell holders.

I ran some tests several years ago just to address this issue...I've ran many various tests over the last 40 odd years. I used RCBS FL and NK, LEE collet and FL, Redding Bushing, Hornady and a Wilson "hammer" style(22-243) and also Redding Comp Shell Holders all in 223 and 308.

I found that neck sizing by backing out the die would NOT correct out of square cases and after a few firings, depending on the level of pressure, the case needed to be sized in a FL die to get it to chamber right. It just made the base to shoulder dimension worse each time...that is measuring a the before and after sizing base/shoulder dimension.

Neck sizing against the shell holder and bumping the shoulder squared the case but NOT as much as FL and kept the base/shoulder dimension uniform and gave the second best accuracy.

Fitting a FL sizer to the case by polishing it out, seating firm against a Comp shell holder and just bumping the shoulder back, 0.002" max for both dimensions would square the case, keep the base/shoulder dimension uniform which solved bolt closure problems and gave the most dimensionally uniform loaded case and highest accuracy.

The Wilson worked well as long as the case was bottomed against the base but could also be variable in the base to shoulder dimension

I used the same most accurate loads for each rifle/caliber...all that differed was the sizing proceedures...

BUT, accuracy varied from bugholes to over 1"...I used 2 - 10 shot "normal" varminting load as the before and after test control...and I didn't try to optimize each "sizing style",all the parameters for the loads were exactly the same, and I used the same benchrest prepped Lapua brand 40 cases throught the test, weight sorted range of 3 tenth grain from lightest to heaviest, left to right, in the loading block.

The only way this will work is to have a very accurate rifle to begin with...the two rifles had SAAMI minimum chambers, McGowen or ER Shaw barrels, "blueprinted" and bedded in an aluminum bedding block, #5 contour barrels, free floated, walnut stocks and are basically bug holers with selected loads...the same loads I worked up for optimum velocity/accuracy and used for varminting...any range.

After this test, which took a month ~200 rounds each, 5 shot groups, I pretty much forgot about neck sizing...I haven't neck sized per se since the mid 60's.

For a factory chambered rifle and "normal" expected accuracy, things aren't so cut and tried...neck sizing with a bump die will probably work just as well as FL as long as you don't go over pressure and metalurgically deform/KILL the brass.

There is also a lot more that goes along with FL and NK sizing and which is "best"...all you can do is try it and see if it works for you and YOUR rifle...NOTHING in this sport is cast in steel.

HOW you size is akin to weighing cases or bullets...it depends on just how much futzing around you want to do, the level of expectancy in accuracy and whether you shoot tiny targets or just go after the meat. YOU have to decide and nothing is either right or wrong...it just depends on YOU.

Luck
 
Originally Posted By: NFGI like FL sizing for a number of reasons...BUT if the neck sizer also bumps the shoulder back and also bottoms firmly against the shell holder with no breakover in the press, either FL or NK will work. You can also "fit" a FL sizer to a fired case(the chamber in other words) and reduce the amount of case sizing to no more than about 0.002" by polishing the inside of the sizer die and using Redding Comp shell holders.

I ran some tests several years ago just to address this issue...I've ran many various tests over the last 40 odd years. I used RCBS FL and NK, LEE collet and FL, Redding Bushing, Hornady and a Wilson "hammer" style(22-243) and also Redding Comp Shell Holders all in 223 and 308.

I found that neck sizing by backing out the die would NOT correct out of square cases and after a few firings, depending on the level of pressure, the case needed to be sized in a FL die to get it to chamber right. It just made the base to shoulder dimension worse each time...that is measuring a the before and after sizing base/shoulder dimension.

Neck sizing against the shell holder and bumping the shoulder squared the case but NOT as much as FL and kept the base/shoulder dimension uniform and gave the second best accuracy. I agree,100%! I haven't "neck sized" a case for 3 years now! Accruacy is as good,or better,brass last just as long,AND all rounds chamber with the EXACT same fit! That never happened with neck sizing,as some would be tighter,than others due to brass hardness diffrences. Ron

Fitting a FL sizer to the case by polishing it out, seating firm against a Comp shell holder and just bumping the shoulder back, 0.002" max for both dimensions would square the case, keep the base/shoulder dimension uniform which solved bolt closure problems and gave the most dimensionally uniform loaded case and highest accuracy.

The Wilson worked well as long as the case was bottomed against the base but could also be variable in the base to shoulder dimension

I used the same most accurate loads for each rifle/caliber...all that differed was the sizing proceedures...

BUT, accuracy varied from bugholes to over 1"...I used 2 - 10 shot "normal" varminting load as the before and after test control...and I didn't try to optimize each "sizing style",all the parameters for the loads were exactly the same, and I used the same benchrest prepped Lapua brand 40 cases throught the test, weight sorted range of 3 tenth grain from lightest to heaviest, left to right, in the loading block.

The only way this will work is to have a very accurate rifle to begin with...the two rifles had SAAMI minimum chambers, McGowen or ER Shaw barrels, "blueprinted" and bedded in an aluminum bedding block, #5 contour barrels, free floated, walnut stocks and are basically bug holers with selected loads...the same loads I worked up for optimum velocity/accuracy and used for varminting...any range.

After this test, which took a month ~200 rounds each, 5 shot groups, I pretty much forgot about neck sizing...I haven't neck sized per se since the mid 60's.

For a factory chambered rifle and "normal" expected accuracy, things aren't so cut and tried...neck sizing with a bump die will probably work just as well as FL as long as you don't go over pressure and metalurgically deform/KILL the brass.

There is also a lot more that goes along with FL and NK sizing and which is "best"...all you can do is try it and see if it works for you and YOUR rifle...NOTHING in this sport is cast in steel.

HOW you size is akin to weighing cases or bullets...it depends on just how much futzing around you want to do, the level of expectancy in accuracy and whether you shoot tiny targets or just go after the meat. YOU have to decide and nothing is either right or wrong...it just depends on YOU.

Luck I agree,100%! Ron
 
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Originally Posted By: chefpierreKeep doing what your doing. After a while if the brass gets a little snug for your bolt rifles you may need to fl resize and trim. Good luck and have fun.

+1. No need to FL everytime if you are shooting the same brass out of the same rifle AND have a relatively tight chamber. Besides, your brass lasts longer by not having to work it as much. But I also check shoulders after every firing and reloading. I don't even bump shoulders with my FL dies unless it's a last resort, again adding life to the casings. Now if you have a loose chamber, then you may be forced to FL resize, but you won't get much life out of your brass. I have rifles at both ends of the aforementioned spectrum. I'm on my 17th reloads on my 6mmbr (Lapua brass and have bumped shoulders once), but only get around 4 reloads out of Winchester or Remington brass in my 22-250 before I get head separation or a crack in the necks. I know how to cure that issue, but the cure costs more than buying the brass. But I also believe you have to know your rifles, their likes and dislikes, as well as free space when it comes to reloading.
 
Same round in different guns, I'd FL resize every time.
Hard to get two chambers exactly the same.

If you keep separate rounds for each gun, neck-only is OK.

Personally I FL resize all rounds.
 
The variables always tell the tail...pressure, chamber/die fit and all othe hundred.

I ran another test on a 223 and a 308, not the same guns as I posted above.

One Lapua case apiece. Used Redding FL bushing dies...loaded and fired the 223 case 50 times over two days, 50gr Sierra, Varget, Fed GM-M...it was still good to go but I was totally wasted going back and forth loading, stepping outside, firing, back inside, reload...ETC, ETC, ETC.

The 308 only lasted 36 times before the neck split...150 gr Sierra, Varget, Bushing die, Fed GM-M. A different case might have gone more or less...but I was tested out.

Both loads were bugholers, but near the top, but not hot.

Dies polished to fit chamber for minimum squish on the
wall and bushing for a ~0.002" neck reduction, Comp shell holders for slightly over 0.001" shoulder set back.

I'm still shooting the same 20 6br cases I started out with and the same 58 gr VM bullet some 5 boxes later...RL10x, Varget, AA2230, AA2460 at ~3350fs out of a 16.5 " bbl. Redding bushing FL die, minus 0.002" bushing, bump the shoulder,~0.0005-6" squish on the walls...the neck sizer bushing die won't do the job in the NEF and I polished out the FL die.

All my bigbores get at least 10 reloads, Belted and Rigby cases, but I don't shoot anything but once fired in them for hunting. They still get some use on varmints just for kicks.

It all depends on your needs and the rifles intended use.

Each rifle is different and to get the most out of your rifle and ammo you have to "Blueprint" them just like you do a racing engine...if you want to win, that is.

Luck
 
I have also had exceptional results neck sizing only with the Hornady Match Grade bushing dies in .308 Winchester and .223 Rem. Since I do all my single stage loading on a Dillon RL-550 B press the shell holder is not relevant. I set the bushing neck die to maintain .0015 headspace clearance. Often there is no perceptible set back of the shoulder until the case eventually stretches after a few firings. Since none of my chambers are particularly tight or match spec, this is about all I can do.

My case life is typically 15-25 loadings before the primer pockets get loose. I rarely have a split neck even with the less pricey Winchester brass.

It appears that you have a highly developed system and excellent knowledge of what it takes to make high grade ammo for your specific rifles. Keep up the good work.
 
Yeah...ex-benchrester, always wondering "what if", "why" and "WHO sez", inveterate, intrepid experimenter, experience in things most reloaders have never heard of or thought of and in many areas of endeavor, dances to a different tune...and half a century of experience.

I was never interested in "winning" per se, only what I could learn from competition. I was as liable to start shooting flys off the target or ground squirrels past the butts as I was to see just how good I could shoot...and then walk off without the tin pot.

I would "go for the gold" if there was something worth going for like MONEY or reloading components, a rifle...something worth taking away, but peer pressure or congratulations, or a tin pot, never played much of a part of my life. Used to make some of the other local competitors totally crazy and there was some talk about banning me from competition...I needed an "attitude adjustment". That REALLY tweaked me off as I was always helping some of them shoot better, tune their rifles or ammo, work on their bag technique, or let them shoot MY rifle in competition.

You're right cdupuy, you ALWAYS need to keep your system functioning properly...cleaning, lubing, adjusting, etc.

What works for one person might or might not work for you...BUT...you HAVE to try it and see...and watch for sandbagging by other competitors. There is/was lots of skullduggery going on when it cames to competition. Everyone used to share "secrets", but you never knew if the secret was all about mucking you all over...or you used one powder, bullet, primer, seating depth, etc and had re-packed the components in another container and prominently displayed, but slightly hidden, for all to see. If you got the wrong idea, wellllll.......

It is much easier today, with ALL the different component makers following SAAMI specs/tolerances and the CNC machinery being able to hold tolerances that weren't possible not too many years ago...AND...all the media and internet information...to produce factory weapons that rivaled yesteryears carefully prepped rifles and ammo accuracy levels. Out of the box, relatively cheap rifles, producing 1/2" groups with factory ammo, is totally amazing to me.

Everytime I build a rifle, the most economic way I can, I'm amazed with what little effort it takes to get groups to start bugholing...doesn't matter the caliber. Even my 50 cal Rigby based wildcat will put 3 rounds into one very large hole...it might measure 1 to 1/4 " edge to edge, but with a .510" bullet OD that translates into ~1/2" or slightly over C to C...1/2" MOA, and mine won't even make 20 ft past the bottom of the score board.

These are GOOD TIMES for shooters.

Luck
 
Originally Posted By: SodakJimI have also had exceptional results neck sizing only with the Hornady Match Grade bushing dies in .308 Winchester and .223 Rem. Since I do all my single stage loading on a Dillon RL-550 B press the shell holder is not relevant. I set the bushing neck die to maintain .0015 headspace clearance. Often there is no perceptible set back of the shoulder until the case eventually stretches after a few firings. Since none of my chambers are particularly tight or match spec, this is about all I can do.

My case life is typically 15-25 loadings before the primer pockets get loose. I rarely have a split neck even with the less pricey Winchester brass.

It appears that you have a highly developed system and excellent knowledge of what it takes to make high grade ammo for your specific rifles. Keep up the good work. I've had good luck with Winchester brass also! For the price it's hard to beat! Ron
 
I appreciate the replies. Much of this is over my head, as I have only reloaded for about a year. I am, and have been, worried about head-space, and I need to buy a head-space gauge. I looked at Wilson gauges, but they wanted $25 each for them. I will probably bite the bullet, so to speak, and get the ones I need, unless someone can point me to a quality one that is cheaper.

I like one ragged hole, but in reality I will do with minute of prairie dog for my .223's, and minute of whitetail or mule deer for my -06. I am going to study more, and get my weapons as accurate as possible. Your replies have shown me there is a lot more knowledge that I need to acquire before I can call myself a re-loader.
 
Headspace is way over rated...it IS important but in a factory rifle or average hunting/shooting, you probably don't have much to worry about.

The best way to correct any headspace issues is to buy a set of Redding Competition shell holders...they come in 0.002" plus increments, and you can order whatever plus or minus dimension you want through Redding...I have plus 0.015", 0.018", 0.020", 0.023 and 0.025" for 0.473" cases...and a couple for .223 and belted mags...can't remember what sizes, [beeep]'

Easiest way to see if you have excess headspace is to buy a set of Hornady headspace gauges(or make your own) AND a good dial caliper, they are both about 25 bucks each. Do an online search for dial calipers, the last 6" caliper I bought was $20 on sale from KBC tools I think...fire a couple rounds, measure with the headspace gauge...it is NOT a actual measurement, just a reference measurement...resize the case making sure the sizer bottoms against the shell holder firmly...WITHOUT breaking over center on the linkage.

Measure again...subtract the sized number from the unsized number and THAT number is the ACTUAL AMOUNT OF HEADSPACE...it should be just a few thousandths...from zero to maybe 0.010". For the "best" shoulder bump use a shell holder that will give you about 0.002". 0.006" measured headspace, subtract 0.002" from 0.006" and that will tell you to use the 0.004" plus shell holder for the correct amount of shoulder bump. Write that down in your reloading notes and use THAT shell holder from then on.

OR...back out your sizing die about half a turn, use a non-permanent magic marker, mark around the case neck and shoulder, resize, see where the sizing marks end, turn down the sizer untill you just touch the shoulder...try a few to be sure...this is the way we did it in the old days before you learned to make your OWN headspace gauges.

Use ONE case...size, reload, fire a few cycles...if the case starts getting hard to close on then turn down the sizer a tad more.

Reloading dies ar 7/8x14 TPI which means each full turn of the die is equal to just about 0.072"...seventy two thousandths of an inch...1/16th of an inch is equal to about 0.0625".

Half a turn = 0.031", quarter turn = 0.016", 1/8 turn = 0.008"...1/16th = 0.004" so each tad equals about 0.001" so to speak.

This will solve any "headspace" issues that might be in your mind and also help fit your sizer to your rifle chamber.

As for cases...it depends on the caliber, the lot number, your requirements...I've had good/bad luck with Win and Rem...I've had as many a half a 100 lot be out of spec for my purposes in BOTH brands...some lots of each I'm shooting still after who knows how many years and reloading cycles. It's the luck of the draw...I buy Lapua as often as possible, it is always much more uniform in all measurements...and Norma when I'm REALLY flush...every batch of Norma for whatever cartridge it's for is so uniform I don't have to do ANYTHING to it...just load and shoot tiny groups. RWS is another very good case...I use it for my 9.3x62...I haven't used Hornady or Nosler brands but they are reported to be very uniform especially the 6.5.

Unfortunately my time is worthless now basically, and I'm not competing so I buy Rem and Win, do the sorting in the winter and get all the accuracy I need for varmints.

Basically you do what you know how to do and for the level of expectancy you require.

Kam582...Everyone starts out crawling then learns to walk, then run and when you get old enough, you're back to crawling again.

Take your time to learn...go to the "good" forums like this one, Saubier, 6mmBR, Long range hunting, the several other Varminting forums...take notes, read books and magazines AND the catalog from component makers is chucked full of good information on the latest and greatest, especially Sinclair's...everything I've learned over the years is available somewhere on the net...and a WHOLE lot more...I learn something new everytime I go online, or look at a reloading manual, or even a new catalog. Everyone has to put in "sweat equity", either by study or on the bench/field...NOTHING is free.

Luck
 
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