Perhaps someone can be of assistance (Muzzleloader)

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erikc838

Active member
I have been shooting centerfire and rimfire for 30 years and reloading for about 20. I recently purchased a CVA Paramount 45 caliber muzzleloader but I am a bit lost. With nowhere else to turn, I came here, realizing this probably isn't a normal topic of conversation.

To my question. Blackhorn 209 is impossible to find right now, without paying a ridiculous amount. So I picked up what I though would be the next best thing, 777. I want to shoot the Powerbelt ELR 45 cal 280 grain projectile. In the manual, CVA stated that they tested a bunch of powders and settled on BH209. The loads for that powder are 140 (98 by weight) and 150 (105 by weight) grains by volume. How does this equate to 777? Is it safe to use that much 777? I also have some of the 777 45 cal 50 grain pellets.

Be gentle if this a dumb question but I'd rather ask so I don’t blow my fingers, hand, face etc. off.
 
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Is this a gun you plan to use for a hunt in the near future or just something you are getting ready to use next fall?

I could probably help you out in more ways than just advice. I also have the CVA paramount in 45 Caliber. I have not tried 777 in it and would be no help on where to start with 777.

I've been shooting 280 gr Powerbelts ELR bullets pushed by 98gr of 209. I've only shot one coyote with this combination and have determined that it is not "fur friendly". I've only used it on one deer hunt in 2020 and never pulled the trigger on that hunt. I didn't draw a single tag in 2021 after applying in 8 different states so I haven't been able to test it out on a deer or elk yet.

If you are not in a rush to get BH209, you should be able to get your hands on some if you keep looking. Right now is still peak season for BH209 demand. In 2 or 3 months it has a better chance of staying on the shelf a few days until the draw results are posted in April. If you keep checking places for 209, you should eventually find some. Unfortunately I don't think we will see a price much better than $50 for 10oz anytime in the future. If I don't draw any muzzleloader tags for 2022 I might be willing to part with 10oz of 209 for a reasonable price around April or May. I can keep an eye open for it as well and buy it for you if I see it on the shelf anytime in the next couple months. I drive through Las Cruces at least a couple times a month. I have seen it on the shelf in the last year on more than one occasion but I didn't purchase it because I thought I would leave it for someone that needs it for a hunt instead just target practice for me.
 
Originally Posted By: BrianIDIs this a gun you plan to use for a hunt in the near future or just something you are getting ready to use next fall?

I could probably help you out in more ways than just advice. I also have the CVA paramount in 45 Caliber. I have not tried 777 in it and would be no help on where to start with 777.

I've been shooting 280 gr Powerbelts ELR bullets pushed by 98gr of 209. I've only shot one coyote with this combination and have determined that it is not "fur friendly". I've only used it on one deer hunt in 2020 and never pulled the trigger on that hunt. I didn't draw a single tag in 2021 after applying in 8 different states so I haven't been able to test it out on a deer or elk yet.

If you are not in a rush to get BH209, you should be able to get your hands on some if you keep looking. Right now is still peak season for BH209 demand. In 2 or 3 months it has a better chance of staying on the shelf a few days until the draw results are posted in April. If you keep checking places for 209, you should eventually find some. Unfortunately I don't think we will see a price much better than $50 for 10oz anytime in the future. If I don't draw any muzzleloader tags for 2022 I might be willing to part with 10oz of 209 for a reasonable price around April or May. I can keep an eye open for it as well and buy it for you if I see it on the shelf anytime in the next couple months. I drive through Las Cruces at least a couple times a month. I have seen it on the shelf in the last year on more than one occasion but I didn't purchase it because I thought I would leave it for someone that needs it for a hunt instead just target practice for me.

I will not be needing it, if I draw a tag(s) until next year (August 2022 at the earliest). Obviously, I am wanting to shoot it. I certainly appreciate the offer and would take whatever you can get (1-10 ounce, or multiples up to one 5lb jug), regardless of whether I find any on my own.

Thank you
 
It would be safe to use 2 50 grain pellets or 105 grains of loose 777 compared to 140 or 150 grain of black powder. I settle on 90 grain, seems to be more accurate for me. Definitely need to clean the crud ring after every shot with 777.
 
So I would be correct in assuming that 140 grains by volume of BH209 is not the same as 140 grains by volume of 777 or Pyrodex Select or RS?I would assume they won’t weigh the same either regardless of being FFG. E-mails to CVA have resulted in very generic responses.
 
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Originally Posted By: Dark moon 63It would be safe to use 2 50 grain pellets or 105 grains of loose 777 compared to 140 or 150 grain of black powder. I settle on 90 grain, seems to be more accurate for me. Definitely need to clean the crud ring after every shot with 777.

Assuming the 105 is by volume.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to contact us.

The only recommended powder for the Paramounts is Blackhorn. Any other black powder substitute will work just not perform nearly as well as the Blackhorn.

It would be like running 87 in a race car, sure it runs, but it will not perform.

The .40 cal max is 150gr by volume or 105gr by weight.

The .45 cal max is 160gr by volume or 112gr by weight.

The .50 cal max is 170gr by volume or 119gr by weight.

The recommended starting point for Blackhorn powder is 140gr by volume or 98gr by weight.

Thanks,

Camaran Waddell
Customer Service Rep
BPI Outdoors



So, does that mean 160 by volume for any powder (FFG)? Or are they specifically referencing BH209? This is what has me confused. Surely that would be different weights depending on the powder for the same volume.

I don't have anything that measures by volume. Powder measures by volume are all the same though right? There's no BH209 specific, Pyrodex Select specific, 777 specific etc.
 
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I have been shooting flintlocks with real black powder for over 40 years. I ventured into inline front loaders about 9 years ago. I bought a CVA Accure V2. I learned a lot from it. I spent a lot of time in the field with it before I found out what it liked. First off Blackhorn 209 is what it likes nothing is even close as far as accuracy. Second it wants CCI 209 Magnum primers. Cva makes a special breech plug for BH209 which I bought but ended up going back to the stock plug with Magnum primers. Third this gun wants to be clean. Clean bore shots shoot 2 1/2 inches higher at 100 than dirty bores. Slick clean barrel shots shoot close to MOA for 3. Barrel cleaned between shots with saliva patch shot about 1 1/2 groups but same POI as slick clean barrel. Dirty barrel shoots 2 1/2 MOA POI 2 1/2 low. It sounds crazy but I have 3 targets that if you transposed them together they are almost identical. My load is 77 weighed grains close to 110 grains by volumn, Hornady 45 cal. 250 gr XTP, Hornady Black 50 cal. sabot, CCI 209M primer. 1960 FPS at muzzle with my Oehler 33 graph. So if it were me I'd be gettin some BH209. YMMV
 
Originally Posted By: flowjI have been shooting flintlocks with real black powder for over 40 years. I ventured into inline front loaders about 9 years ago. I bought a CVA Accure V2. I learned a lot from it. I spent a lot of time in the field with it before I found out what it liked. First off Blackhorn 209 is what it likes nothing is even close as far as accuracy. Second it wants CCI 209 Magnum primers. Cva makes a special breech plug for BH209 which I bought but ended up going back to the stock plug with Magnum primers. Third this gun wants to be clean. Clean bore shots shoot 2 1/2 inches higher at 100 than dirty bores. Slick clean barrel shots shoot close to MOA for 3. Barrel cleaned between shots with saliva patch shot about 1 1/2 groups but same POI as slick clean barrel. Dirty barrel shoots 2 1/2 MOA POI 2 1/2 low. It sounds crazy but I have 3 targets that if you transposed them together they are almost identical. My load is 77 weighed grains close to 110 grains by volumn, Hornady 45 cal. 250 gr XTP, Hornady Black 50 cal. sabot, CCI 209M primer. 1960 FPS at muzzle with my Oehler 33 graph. So if it were me I'd be gettin some BH209. YMMV

If I could find BH209, this all would be a lot simpler. However, like I said in the first post, it has been impossible for me to find.
 
My old muzzleloader’s were before you could run 3 50 grain pellets. Around 100 grain max by volume. Most 20 year old or newer muzzleloader’s went to 150. The way I read your earlier post it looked like it was a 100 grain gun. I shoot 90 grain BH 209 with no problem with 300 grain XTP’s. I know that doesn’t help you.
 
The consistent takeaway has been I need BH209, which I will certainly get when the opportunity arises. Though to be fair, I have only seriously been looking for about a month now. In the meantime, I was looking for an alternative, but the lack of good information using other propellants just doesn't seem to exist (probably because no one is doing it, or very few). If all I want it to go is "bang" I guess I have what I need, but it seems I will not see the performance it is capable of. I will hold out I suppose, but don't know what I'll do with 2lbs of unopened powder and 50 45 caliber pellets. I originally was going to go 50 cal, for more options but the twist in the model I was looking at (CVA LR-X) won't support what the ELR bullet requires (and I had my mind made up on using them).
 
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I have seen BH209 in a couple of stores, not sure what reasonable price is. Or how to ship it? I will check around, our muzzleloader season is almost over.
 
Originally Posted By: spotstalkshootI have seen BH209 in a couple of stores, not sure what reasonable price is. Or how to ship it? I will check around, our muzzleloader season is almost over.

Reasonable is in the $45 range for 10 ounces. $300 range for 5 pounds. Just won't pay the $200-300+ for a 10 ounce container on GunBroker. There's a special place where people who do that can go.
 
Yeah, B209 is scarce, can be $50 for 10 ounces too. If for next year, keep an eye out. If any outdoor friends or relatives, ask them too. You can pick it up later.

I can’t see loading more than 120 grains by volume with either 777 or B209. I often use 110-115 in my 45 cal Knight. Take a peek at State regs where you plan to hunt, mostly a free for all here in the Midwest. Out West they average more restrictions, for better or worse.
 
Black powder, and black powder substitutes, are measured by volume, not weight. Pellets are on a volume equivalency basis; in other words, a pellet of X powder is measured and rated at the factory as the equivalent of Y number of black powder grains per pellet. I'm pretty sure this is all because nobody carried a scale around to weigh charges in the woods in the days before speedloaders! Lol.....similar to the way benchrest shooters tend to measure loads between rounds in volume with a measure, not a scale out in the outdoors wind, etc. It works out the same, but the system of measures are different. Dont worry about weight.....its not centirefire loading. Adding weight into the equation just adds unnecessary confusion. Get a volumetric messure for your speedloader and field loading, and be happy with no scales.

Fwiw I musta got lucky this fall as i was in the local wallyworld one day, and I rarely get in there, and the had a new stock of bh209 on the shelf....$35/10 oz iirc? That was a couple months ago.
 
Originally Posted By: Mike BBlack powder, and black powder substitutes, are measured by volume, not weight.



Not totally correct. Western Powders has a chart in their small book about weighing BH209 powders.

80 grains by volume=56 grains by weight
100 grains by volume=70 grains by weight
120 grains by volume=84 grains by weight

All taken from their book. I weigh up several, maybe a dozen or so, before I head to the range for testing and sighting in. After finding a load I like, I load what I feel will get me through a day of hunting. I use 777 in my T/C and BH209 in my Knight. I measured 100 grains of 777 volume, then weighed it on my scale, the loaded several vials to take with me hunting. Easy!!

NOTE-777 doesn't weigh out the same as BH209. Two totally different powders and weights.
 
Sportsmans warehouse has BH 209 for 48 for 10 oz. Thought I would look as I only have a can and 1/2 left. Although 10oz lasts me a couple years,
 
Found some powder and got out to do a bit of shooting. I shot 4 rounds total between 25-50 yards, to get it hitting where I wanted and then moved out to 100 yards (Vortez rangefinder actually read 100.7 yards). All shots were prone, using a bipod. After shots 1 and 2, I adjusted .75moa right and shot 3-5, in the order they are numbered. Chronograph was not set up for shots 1-2. For all 9 shots, no cleaning of any kind was done in between shots.

CVA Paramount 45 caliber, 26" barrel (not the Pro, or HTR)
100 grains (by weight) Blackhorn 209
CCI200 primer
Powerbelt 280 grain ELR
Average velocity (shots 3-5) was 2,399 ft/s
SD (shots 3-5) was 11.02 ft/s

 
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