Poor Groups?

DennisP

DennisP

New member
I posted a while back about a load for my model 12 savage .223 and got a lot of responses. Thank you all who responded. I loaded up 50 rounds from 25.5 gr to 27.5 gr in .5 increments. All using 55 gr V-Max, Hod. BL-C 2, and CCI 450 Primers. The casings varied some. I shot 5 group shots and cleaned the rifle after each five shot group. None of the grouped like I wanted them to group, or how I felt the rifle should group. Some of it could have been me, although I don't think that much. The 25.5, 26.0, 26.5 all grouped about the same, a 1 1/4". The 27.0 and 27.5 where really bad with some flattening of the primers. I reloaded the 26.0 and 26.5 and re-shot those a couple of days later and pretty much got the same results as before. It could be some perolex of the scope which is a 6-18 Bushnell Banner and I had it turned up to 18. Should this out of the box rifle shoot better then this, or is this all I should expect?
 
Well let me say this the Stevens that I have that cost me $260. Shot at least one inch groups with darn near ever ammo brand and type that went down the tube. The only thing that I have done to it is to do a trigger job on it. I have only used H335 powder in mine and it has preformed far better than what I expected from such a low priced rifle. I will say though it likes and shoots better with a dirty barrel. I have not seen a decrease in accuracy for the last 250 or so rounds. I only clean my guns when the accuracy drops off. I also use the 55 grain Vmaxes in my Stevens with 25.5 grains of H335 and CCI mag 450 primers. Good luck. This was my last group shot with it.
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Its worth experimenting with the jump of the bullet to the rifling. If that dimension were to be something the rifle didn't like, all the other variables, powders, bullets, you introduce will likely seem meaningless. Kind of like trying to tune up your motor, with one plug unhooked. I've often found that rifles will favor a jump of .020" or less. If that makes an over all length too long for the magazine, I go to the length that fits, and start going shorter, in .005" steps. In a very accurate rifle, its not unusual to see the group shrink, then expand, as you cross the "sweet spot", and if you go in .010" steps, you could skip right over it. If you have other problems, like bad bedding, all the testing could look terrible, until the problem is corrected. One I fooled with drove me crazy. Nothing helped. Finally, I gave up on the bullet I was trying to get to shoot, and went to different one. Shortly after that, it displayed a two group pattern: it needed to be bedded. After that was done, I looked at the notes from the first bullet, tried one that had showed some promise, and had a one holer.
 
I would mix it up with different bullet and powder combos. I have tried 6 different bullets and 3 different powders in my savage 12fv in 223. My results have varied from clover leafs at 100 yards to about 1.5 moa at 100yards. I finally ended up setteling on remington 55 gr corelokts with imr 4895. They shoot about 1/2 to 3/4 moa and they area the cheapest bullet I tried. The worst groups I has were using winchester 748 ball powder. Using this powder opened up all of my groups with the different bullets.
 
Some times a new rifle will have some loosness in the action to stokc screws scope mounts ect. Check the rifle over, sometimes they need to break in as well so don't look for real great groups for a hundred rounds or more then start trying to find a load combination for groups. But you also need to remember that every rifle is a law unto itself what works in so and so's rilfe probibly will not work as well in yours, and the load he got lousy groups with in his rifle may be a tack driver in yours.
Much of the fun and challenge of handloading is working up YOUR loads that group well in YOUR rifle.
From what your saying I would check the rifle make sure it is tight in every connection. Very few factory new firearms have major flaws it is usually some thing minor like loose screws in a mount or generally poor scope mounting that cause bad goups. As long as you do your part sight picture, breathing and trigger squeeze.as well as proper positioning dopeing wind and mirage ect.
BTW try a lower power setting on your scope lowest to lower end of midrange works best.
 
Dennis, when shooting groups I always make sure to shoot one fouling shot after cleaning. First shot out of a clean bbl never seems to go where I want.
 
I've checked all screws several times and don't think it's that. I'm going to play with the bullet seating next and see If I moight be seating it a bit too deep. I guess if that doesn't work, I'll play with different powders and them bullets. Thanks for the insight.

Dennis
 
I would contact Savage, ask them if you can send it to them for evaluation. Good barrels will shoot good groups with several loads and better groups with some tailored loads. Crappy barrels shoot crappy groups with all loads, there is no magic load that will make it a good shooting rifle.
 
Higbean started my thought---once you start shooting your groups, put the cleaning rod away. You'll probably get one flyer per group when you clean in between groups.

But there's so much you didn't say that it hard to give a good answer. Does the barrel free float or does it use a pressure point?, does the barrel contact the stock on the sides of the barrel?, are you pushing on the rifle while shooting?, breathing right?, what are you using as your rifle rest?, how heavy is your trigger pull?, how long between shots?, the list goes on and on. What do the groups look like? Unless you have a gauge, put the base of the bullet at about the start of the neck, unless this makes your overall length too long. Later you can fine tune by adjusting bullet seating. Is this the only gun your shooting? Take along your 22LR and practice about 50 shots with it to get good groups before moving up to the 223.
 
hello...maybe i'm redneck here.."however" shooting 1 1/4 five shot group's thru a clean barrel doesn't sound to shabby to me...it might shoot even better with the barrel fouled up a "tad".
 
I have the model 12 FV Short Action. The Barrel is free floated and has clearance all around. You can slip a dollar between the barrel and stock. I have a two point rile rest that is adjustable, but have also tried sand bags.
While shooting, I have one hand on the trigger and the other off the rifle rested underneath. The AccuTrigger is set at it's lowest point which is suppose to be 1 1/2 pounds, but I have not had it gauged, and I change the amoungt of time between shots. I like the idea of having someone else shot it and see what happens and playing with bullet depth.
 


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