Joel Hughes
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Redding Type S Bushing Dies - Help w/ Purchase
- Thread starter Joel Hughes
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Furhunter
New member
Quote:
Some facts:
I will be reloading for 220 Swift bolt rifle.
I will NOT be turning necks.
I do NOT own or plan on owning a neck micrometer or concentricity gage
I do NOT own or plan on owning a tool for measuring runout.
Then you do NOT need bushing dies.
The biggest reason for bushing dies is because you do turn necks, or you need more or less neck tension.
Redding makes regular neck sizer dies that will bump a shoulder back a couple thousands if needed. For that matter your FL die you already have will do the same thing.
Some facts:
I will be reloading for 220 Swift bolt rifle.
I will NOT be turning necks.
I do NOT own or plan on owning a neck micrometer or concentricity gage
I do NOT own or plan on owning a tool for measuring runout.
Then you do NOT need bushing dies.
The biggest reason for bushing dies is because you do turn necks, or you need more or less neck tension.
Redding makes regular neck sizer dies that will bump a shoulder back a couple thousands if needed. For that matter your FL die you already have will do the same thing.
CatShooter
New member
Well... first off, because of the design of the case, you will NEVER have to bump the shoulders of a .220 Swift, so forget that.
I use bushing sizing dies for most of my rifles, but I only have one that needs neck turning.
The bushing die allows minimum neck sizing, without using an expander (I remove the expander in ALL my sizing dies!).
The FL bushing die will have the added alignment of the body being held in alignment while the bushing is sizing the neck - if you use this type of die, set it up so that it just touches the body at the top of the ram stroke, and then set the bushing depth to size just the amount of the neck that the bottom of the bullet goes to... if the bullet seats half way into the neck, then size half of the neck.
The less you size with the body size the better... and that's not just the Swift, but ANY cartridge.
If you get the Bushing Neck sizing die, keep in mind that no part of the die touches the body, only the neck touches the bushing... so you have to watch neck run-out if you are fussy.
For your use, I would suggest the FL bushing die, set up as I explained - it will give you the best finished case.
Pick a bushing that is ~0.003" smaller that the loaded neck dia ~0.249" to 0.250" is usually what I use on 22 centerfires.
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I use bushing sizing dies for most of my rifles, but I only have one that needs neck turning.
The bushing die allows minimum neck sizing, without using an expander (I remove the expander in ALL my sizing dies!).
The FL bushing die will have the added alignment of the body being held in alignment while the bushing is sizing the neck - if you use this type of die, set it up so that it just touches the body at the top of the ram stroke, and then set the bushing depth to size just the amount of the neck that the bottom of the bullet goes to... if the bullet seats half way into the neck, then size half of the neck.
The less you size with the body size the better... and that's not just the Swift, but ANY cartridge.
If you get the Bushing Neck sizing die, keep in mind that no part of the die touches the body, only the neck touches the bushing... so you have to watch neck run-out if you are fussy.
For your use, I would suggest the FL bushing die, set up as I explained - it will give you the best finished case.
Pick a bushing that is ~0.003" smaller that the loaded neck dia ~0.249" to 0.250" is usually what I use on 22 centerfires.
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Joel Hughes
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CatShooter
New member
Quote:
"... Thanks CatShooter. I was hoping you would chime in. Redding states that for a 220 Swift, to choose a bushing somewhere between .251-.259?
I can't help but be concerned with the possibility of needing multiple bushings since I won't be turning necks and using brass from different lots. Should this be a concern?
Heck, I don't even have a die to load a bullet, in order to measure the neck diameter of a loaded round (to subtract the .001-.003 off of). I hope to borrow one.
When/where, did Redding say 0.251" to 0.259"... Whoa, 0.259", that's some thick kinda brass. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Redding is a good company, but some of their info is.. well, sometimes a little shaky.
Neck walls are typically, 0.0135" to 0.0145" - maybe a very tiny bit (0.0005") more or less.
So you take 0.0135" x 2 + 0.224", and you get 0.251" - your finished, loaded neck will be ~ 0.251".
But the bushing has to be smaller than 0.251" in order to squeeze down the neck.
Buy a box of loaded ammo and measure it...
... then shoot it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
.
"... Thanks CatShooter. I was hoping you would chime in. Redding states that for a 220 Swift, to choose a bushing somewhere between .251-.259?
I can't help but be concerned with the possibility of needing multiple bushings since I won't be turning necks and using brass from different lots. Should this be a concern?
Heck, I don't even have a die to load a bullet, in order to measure the neck diameter of a loaded round (to subtract the .001-.003 off of). I hope to borrow one.
When/where, did Redding say 0.251" to 0.259"... Whoa, 0.259", that's some thick kinda brass. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Redding is a good company, but some of their info is.. well, sometimes a little shaky.
Neck walls are typically, 0.0135" to 0.0145" - maybe a very tiny bit (0.0005") more or less.
So you take 0.0135" x 2 + 0.224", and you get 0.251" - your finished, loaded neck will be ~ 0.251".
But the bushing has to be smaller than 0.251" in order to squeeze down the neck.
Buy a box of loaded ammo and measure it...
... then shoot it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
.
Furhunter
New member
Quote:
Quote:
Then you do NOT need bushing dies.
Now see there, furhuner, that's one reason I bring this up. I get conflicting information about that when I read about this topic. Some, like you, say only use busing dies if turning necks. Seems to me that there would still be a benefit. I'm just trying to determine if I think it is worth it.
All I am say is this.
If you dont turn necks, if you dont have... or want the equipment to measure the difference it may make. What really are you gaining over a regular neck sizer die, or a FL die set up to size just the neck? More over how are going to know if the extra money, time and trouble spent will gain you anything, you wont know...you cant measure it....you dont have the tools. A bushing die wont make a 1 MOA rifle shoot in the .3's if they did everyone would use them. Far greater accuracy potential can be found in different powder, bullet, and seating depth combos than the choice of any sizing die.
Quote:
Then you do NOT need bushing dies.
Now see there, furhuner, that's one reason I bring this up. I get conflicting information about that when I read about this topic. Some, like you, say only use busing dies if turning necks. Seems to me that there would still be a benefit. I'm just trying to determine if I think it is worth it.
All I am say is this.
If you dont turn necks, if you dont have... or want the equipment to measure the difference it may make. What really are you gaining over a regular neck sizer die, or a FL die set up to size just the neck? More over how are going to know if the extra money, time and trouble spent will gain you anything, you wont know...you cant measure it....you dont have the tools. A bushing die wont make a 1 MOA rifle shoot in the .3's if they did everyone would use them. Far greater accuracy potential can be found in different powder, bullet, and seating depth combos than the choice of any sizing die.
Joel, I'm with CS on this one. As to your concern about needing multiple bushings, due to wide variation in brass thickness. My answer would be, if your at least picky enough to want to use bushing dies and be aware of those variations in brass, just throw the damb cobby lot of brass with that much variation in the garbage...
- DAA
- DAA
Linefinder
New member
I own both, and each has its uses. For my BR rifle I use the FL Bushing Die and get great results. IMO, it's the best die going for really precise work.
OTOH, I use the Neck Sizing Die on my pdog rigs, and only very occasionally use the body die to bump the shoulder back. The reason I use this die for my high volume rigs is (contrary to instructions and better judgment), I find I get very acceptable results without lubing the cases. When loading quantities of 300-400 rounds, eliminating the lubing/clean up step is a great benefit.
So....my opinion is that if you are loading for a low volume rig, the FL Bushing die would be my pick, and for high volume varmint rigs, the neck only die, with the occasional shoulder bump with the body die would be the way to go.
Mike
OTOH, I use the Neck Sizing Die on my pdog rigs, and only very occasionally use the body die to bump the shoulder back. The reason I use this die for my high volume rigs is (contrary to instructions and better judgment), I find I get very acceptable results without lubing the cases. When loading quantities of 300-400 rounds, eliminating the lubing/clean up step is a great benefit.
So....my opinion is that if you are loading for a low volume rig, the FL Bushing die would be my pick, and for high volume varmint rigs, the neck only die, with the occasional shoulder bump with the body die would be the way to go.
Mike
Joel Hughes
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CatShooter
New member
Quote:
Thanks all for the information. I appreciate it!
CatShooter:
Quote:
When/where, did Redding say 0.251" to 0.259"... Whoa, 0.259", that's some thick kinda brass.
Redding is a good company, but some of their info is.. well, sometimes a little shaky.
Right here is where I got the information: Redding Bushing Chart
I will measure my own and get the correct measurement. Thanks.
Man... that chart is weird!
.
Thanks all for the information. I appreciate it!
CatShooter:
Quote:
When/where, did Redding say 0.251" to 0.259"... Whoa, 0.259", that's some thick kinda brass.
Redding is a good company, but some of their info is.. well, sometimes a little shaky.
Right here is where I got the information: Redding Bushing Chart
I will measure my own and get the correct measurement. Thanks.
Man... that chart is weird!
.
Bluesman
New member
Joel,
I may understand your pain here. I have a 220 swift and I use the Redding S bushing neck dies. I like them very much because I can partial neck size. I am confident that if neck sizing lends itself to better chamber fit, then partial neck sizing means better chamber fit still....hopefully resulting in better groups.
I also like the fact that I dont have to lube or use the expander ball. I read and read about so many of the finer points of resizing and prepping cases. I learned some talking to Todd Kindler and the guys on the Sierra and Redding tech lines. I do all of this and then I shoot the bullets through a 1976 Ruger 77 220 swift Varmint. I don't even have a high-end barrel on the rifle. It's all stock except for my bedding job and a previous owner's trigger improvement. Does it shoot in the .3's?? Well heck no. But it sure is fun to know that I've done the best I could with my case sizing. I also make sure that all flash holes are uniformed as well as primer pockets and so on. I do it all except for neck turning myself. I trim and chamfer all the cases so I know that my handloads are as good as I can make them without all those other tools you listed. My logic was the same as yours. I don't care about the 50 or so bucks so what the heck?
I think I use the 0.248" bushing for my swift cases. I'll have to double check that because I have not loaded any in a while, however I keep very good notes. We moved about 18 months ago and I'm setting up my bench again this coming weekend. I remember buying several bushings and ultimately only needing about one to accomplish that 0.003" grip that Redding explains.
BTW...How's my old friend Rusty Holt? He's hard to get in touch with these days.
JB Eanes
Mooresville, NC
I may understand your pain here. I have a 220 swift and I use the Redding S bushing neck dies. I like them very much because I can partial neck size. I am confident that if neck sizing lends itself to better chamber fit, then partial neck sizing means better chamber fit still....hopefully resulting in better groups.
I also like the fact that I dont have to lube or use the expander ball. I read and read about so many of the finer points of resizing and prepping cases. I learned some talking to Todd Kindler and the guys on the Sierra and Redding tech lines. I do all of this and then I shoot the bullets through a 1976 Ruger 77 220 swift Varmint. I don't even have a high-end barrel on the rifle. It's all stock except for my bedding job and a previous owner's trigger improvement. Does it shoot in the .3's?? Well heck no. But it sure is fun to know that I've done the best I could with my case sizing. I also make sure that all flash holes are uniformed as well as primer pockets and so on. I do it all except for neck turning myself. I trim and chamfer all the cases so I know that my handloads are as good as I can make them without all those other tools you listed. My logic was the same as yours. I don't care about the 50 or so bucks so what the heck?
I think I use the 0.248" bushing for my swift cases. I'll have to double check that because I have not loaded any in a while, however I keep very good notes. We moved about 18 months ago and I'm setting up my bench again this coming weekend. I remember buying several bushings and ultimately only needing about one to accomplish that 0.003" grip that Redding explains.
BTW...How's my old friend Rusty Holt? He's hard to get in touch with these days.
JB Eanes
Mooresville, NC
Joel. If you are not planning to turn necks and don't have the tools for measureing them then the bushing die wouldbe a waste of time and money. You could go with just a standard neck die. Also depending on how many times you reload the brass and how hot, you will get brass flow to the necks and can cause a pressure problem later on.
You should at least have a dial calipers..
You should at least have a dial calipers..
Linefinder
New member
Quote:
Joel. If you are not planning to turn necks and don't have the tools for measureing them then the bushing die would be a waste of time and money.
Respectfully disagree with that. I use the Bushing S Dies on both my BR and pdog rigs. The BR gets the necks turned, due to it being intentionally "tight necked" when chambered. On the pdog rigs, though, I made sure my smith gave me a chamber that'd not require neck turning. I've never neck turned (and never will)a varmint round.
With both my .223's and 6mm Rem, while using the Lee Collet neck die, I'd get great groups except I'd routinely have an unexplainable flyer out of almost every five shot group. Long story short, my bullet runout was typically between .003 and .006 in both chamberings. Changing to the Bushing S Neck Dies made
Joel. If you are not planning to turn necks and don't have the tools for measureing them then the bushing die would be a waste of time and money.
Respectfully disagree with that. I use the Bushing S Dies on both my BR and pdog rigs. The BR gets the necks turned, due to it being intentionally "tight necked" when chambered. On the pdog rigs, though, I made sure my smith gave me a chamber that'd not require neck turning. I've never neck turned (and never will)a varmint round.
With both my .223's and 6mm Rem, while using the Lee Collet neck die, I'd get great groups except I'd routinely have an unexplainable flyer out of almost every five shot group. Long story short, my bullet runout was typically between .003 and .006 in both chamberings. Changing to the Bushing S Neck Dies made
Just getting rid of the wretched evil expander and not having to mess around with lubing cases is more than enough justification for bushing dies, in my opinion.
A guy can start getting picky and finding other reasons from there, if he wants, but that's enough, right there, as far as I'm concerned.
- DAA
A guy can start getting picky and finding other reasons from there, if he wants, but that's enough, right there, as far as I'm concerned.
- DAA
CatShooter
New member
Quote:
Just getting rid of the wretched evil expander and not having to mess around with lubing cases is more than enough justification for bushing dies, in my opinion.
A guy can start getting picky and finding other reasons from there, if he wants, but that's enough, right there, as far as I'm concerned.
- DAA
What he said!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Just getting rid of the wretched evil expander and not having to mess around with lubing cases is more than enough justification for bushing dies, in my opinion.
A guy can start getting picky and finding other reasons from there, if he wants, but that's enough, right there, as far as I'm concerned.
- DAA
What he said!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
AWS
Custom Accessory Maker & Retired PM Staff
I shoot three wildcats based on the standard 204Ruger case, .224, .243 and .257. The 204 Ruger FL Bushing die has saved me alot of money in custon dies as I just swap out the bushings for each caliber and use the same die to load all three. I did have to open the neck openning in the die to aloe the larger neck sizes.
AWS
AWS
Bluesman
New member
I will have to agree that you need at least a dial caliper Joel. You need to be able to measure those case lengths and diameters. Your post does not say that you don't have one. It just says you don't have the run-out and concentricity tools. Once you get the calipers you'll probably end up with a bullet comparator of some sort. Here's a link to the Sinclair catalog with some examples.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTCO&type=store
IMHO this is the minimum amount of measuring equipment needed. Of course there are minimalists among us that will explain how they need even less. And others will profess needing more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As far as reloading goes for me....I have found myself caught on the fence between shooting paper at the range and critters in the field. When I start working up a load and spend hours at the range, I think I need more and more gear for reloading, shooting, etc. When the winter comes and I spend all those hours out there calling predators, I realize I just need to use more often what I already have.
JB Eanes
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTCO&type=store
IMHO this is the minimum amount of measuring equipment needed. Of course there are minimalists among us that will explain how they need even less. And others will profess needing more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As far as reloading goes for me....I have found myself caught on the fence between shooting paper at the range and critters in the field. When I start working up a load and spend hours at the range, I think I need more and more gear for reloading, shooting, etc. When the winter comes and I spend all those hours out there calling predators, I realize I just need to use more often what I already have.
JB Eanes
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Joel Hughes
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