savage 10fp at 500 yards in a 308
- Thread starter skeetlee
- Start date
My brother out in AZ has that rifle. He shoots mid range matches with it. I know it will group under 1/2" at 100 yards, but don't know what it will do at 500 yards. His Savage will outshoot his buddies' Remingtons, to their chagrin. Sent him an email asking about it's longer ranged performance. Hopefully, he will respond by tomorrow.
However, he did make a few modifications. First he replaced the factory trigger with a Sharp Shooter Supply trigger. He had Fred Moreo of SSS true the face of the receiver and install a surface ground recoil lug. He first tried a Choate stock, but eventually ended up buying one of SSS's fiberglass stocks, which he likes better and which seemed to help improve the accuracy of the gun.
The few (3) FP's I have seen in .308 Win. have been capable of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with handloads.
However, he did make a few modifications. First he replaced the factory trigger with a Sharp Shooter Supply trigger. He had Fred Moreo of SSS true the face of the receiver and install a surface ground recoil lug. He first tried a Choate stock, but eventually ended up buying one of SSS's fiberglass stocks, which he likes better and which seemed to help improve the accuracy of the gun.
The few (3) FP's I have seen in .308 Win. have been capable of 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with handloads.
This was his response:
I've only shot for groups at 100, 200, and 300 yards. I shot at 500 yards to get a zero, but there wasn't enough time to get groups before the wind started to gust (10-40 mph). I don't have access to that range unless I'm taking a clinic.
When I was minding my P's and Q's with reloading and bullet seating, and getting a really solid sandbag rest, I was getting .25MOA at 100 yards. I was getting around 1-inch at 300, and it was all over when the wind started to gust hard. Not because of the bullet travel, but because the target was moving (and so was I) from the gusts.
After that, I didn't feel like spending as much time getting my bullets seated in, and found my typical groups expand to about .33MOA. I noted that unless I had the perfect concrete bench with solid chair and sandbags just so, accuracy was just a game. I soon began shooting using-in-the-field scenarios with bipod and backpack and found that my accuracy was well outside anything I could do by tweaking loads.
Particulars: Lapua brass, Nosler J4 167, 44 grains of Varget, standard primers. 2.5-10x IOR scope.
I've only shot for groups at 100, 200, and 300 yards. I shot at 500 yards to get a zero, but there wasn't enough time to get groups before the wind started to gust (10-40 mph). I don't have access to that range unless I'm taking a clinic.
When I was minding my P's and Q's with reloading and bullet seating, and getting a really solid sandbag rest, I was getting .25MOA at 100 yards. I was getting around 1-inch at 300, and it was all over when the wind started to gust hard. Not because of the bullet travel, but because the target was moving (and so was I) from the gusts.
After that, I didn't feel like spending as much time getting my bullets seated in, and found my typical groups expand to about .33MOA. I noted that unless I had the perfect concrete bench with solid chair and sandbags just so, accuracy was just a game. I soon began shooting using-in-the-field scenarios with bipod and backpack and found that my accuracy was well outside anything I could do by tweaking loads.
Particulars: Lapua brass, Nosler J4 167, 44 grains of Varget, standard primers. 2.5-10x IOR scope.
I own a 10fple2a in .223 that I am very happy with. Don't shoot a .308, but if the .308 shoots as good as the .223 I would think you should have no problem. Mine is used for P-dogs, Harris bi-pod and sand bag rear rest. Mine does have the Choate stock that I love to shoot. Dogs seem to dissappear at the 300 yd. mark. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Quote:
do you think the savage police and tactical series rifles model 10 would shoot sub moa at 500 yards in 308? been thinking about buying one with the hs stock. lee
Possibly in an underground range. Above ground by less than a world class long range shooter, very unlikely. Even with a perfect rifle it takes serious wind and mirage doping skills, not to mention bench technique, to maintain 1 MOA at 500 yards.
I shot a lot of long range competition for 20+ years, probably 30 money matches a year. With a money is no object match rifle I can come close but sure can't keep it under a minute even 80% of the time at 500 yards.
Jack
do you think the savage police and tactical series rifles model 10 would shoot sub moa at 500 yards in 308? been thinking about buying one with the hs stock. lee
Possibly in an underground range. Above ground by less than a world class long range shooter, very unlikely. Even with a perfect rifle it takes serious wind and mirage doping skills, not to mention bench technique, to maintain 1 MOA at 500 yards.
I shot a lot of long range competition for 20+ years, probably 30 money matches a year. With a money is no object match rifle I can come close but sure can't keep it under a minute even 80% of the time at 500 yards.
Jack
aubie515
New member
I agree with Jack on this one...the rifle may be capable, but is the shooter? Sub MOA at that range would require an excellent marksman, match ammo, perfect wind conditions, and a good scope wouldn't hurt.
Try asking that question SH...there are a lot of long range shooters on that forum.
Those comments being said, I miss my Savage 10FP 308. I sold it last year and replaced it with a Remington 5R. The action on the Remington is nicer, but I'm not convinced that the 5R is that much more accurate than my Savage.
Try asking that question SH...there are a lot of long range shooters on that forum.
Those comments being said, I miss my Savage 10FP 308. I sold it last year and replaced it with a Remington 5R. The action on the Remington is nicer, but I'm not convinced that the 5R is that much more accurate than my Savage.
DogBeGone
New member
Quote:
I agree with Jack on this one...the rifle may be capable, but is the shooter? Sub MOA at that range would require an excellent marksman, match ammo, perfect wind conditions, and a good scope wouldn't hurt.
Try asking that question SH...there are a lot of long range shooters on that forum.
Those comments being said, I miss my Savage 10FP 308. I sold it last year and replaced it with a Remington 5R. The action on the Remington is nicer, but I'm not convinced that the 5R is that much more accurate than my Savage.
And I'll disagree with both of you...
Are we on the same page, that 1 MOA, at 500 yards, equals about 5.5 inches?
If so, this is not terribly difficult to obtain.
If you start with a half minute rifle, in a vacuum, then theoretically, you are looking for 2.5-3" groups at 500 yards.
Now, add the real world factors such as wind, shooter error, load inconsistency, etc.
That leaves you a full 2.5-3" of leeway to achieve MOA.
About 7 years ago, I was at my range which, at the time, had a 700 yard rifle range. I was playing with my M-14 from different field positions, when a dude showed up with his AI tactical .308 bolt gun.
I politely asked (ok, begged) to try it out, and fired a 5 shot group with Federal Premium 168's. My group measured 5 inches, and 4 of the shots were in 3.5". So this was about .8 MOA, at long range, with a rifle I'd never fired, in real world shooting conditions.
So I think it's well within reason to expect MOA @ 500 with your Savage 10FP. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I agree with Jack on this one...the rifle may be capable, but is the shooter? Sub MOA at that range would require an excellent marksman, match ammo, perfect wind conditions, and a good scope wouldn't hurt.
Try asking that question SH...there are a lot of long range shooters on that forum.
Those comments being said, I miss my Savage 10FP 308. I sold it last year and replaced it with a Remington 5R. The action on the Remington is nicer, but I'm not convinced that the 5R is that much more accurate than my Savage.
And I'll disagree with both of you...
Are we on the same page, that 1 MOA, at 500 yards, equals about 5.5 inches?
If so, this is not terribly difficult to obtain.
If you start with a half minute rifle, in a vacuum, then theoretically, you are looking for 2.5-3" groups at 500 yards.
Now, add the real world factors such as wind, shooter error, load inconsistency, etc.
That leaves you a full 2.5-3" of leeway to achieve MOA.
About 7 years ago, I was at my range which, at the time, had a 700 yard rifle range. I was playing with my M-14 from different field positions, when a dude showed up with his AI tactical .308 bolt gun.
I politely asked (ok, begged) to try it out, and fired a 5 shot group with Federal Premium 168's. My group measured 5 inches, and 4 of the shots were in 3.5". So this was about .8 MOA, at long range, with a rifle I'd never fired, in real world shooting conditions.
So I think it's well within reason to expect MOA @ 500 with your Savage 10FP. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
stiff neck
New member
I just find it amazing that so many internet posters can achieve "typical" groups from .25" to .33" at 100 yards with only 10x power scopes. A lot of those folks hang out at those sniper forums. They must be an amazing group of shooters.
Quote:
I just find it amazing that so many internet posters can achieve "typical" groups from .25" to .33" at 100 yards with only 10x power scopes. A lot of those folks hang out at those sniper forums. They must be an amazing group of shooters.
Give up caffeinated beverages, get in top physical shape, possess extremely good eyesight, learn proper trigger control and bench technique, shoot under ideal atmospheric conditions on the proper target and you might find it less difficult than you imagined. lol
When you start adding in the wide variety of human factors and all those other things that affect accuracy, other than the rifle and load themselves, then it becomes very difficult.
I have a friend who I have seen shoot five shot groups in the .1's with his Sharp Shooter Supply tuned Savage FVSS in 25/06 and the middle .2's with his tuned .300 Win. Mag. BVSS at 100 yards. Does he do that well all the time? Of course not, but he does it often enough under ideal conditions that I know his guns and loads are capable of it and that it can be done under the right conditions, if he does his part properly. He's a better long distance shot than am I. He spends more time working up the most accurate loads for his rifles, than do I. So, he shoots better than do I. And, I do not begrudge him that fact.
I saw him shoot a 3" 5 shot group at 500 yards with his Savage .300 Win. Mag. under conditions my .22-250 could only get about an 8" group. The mirage was terrible. As I was looking through my 6.5X20 Leupold VariX III, the orange target dots we were using were expanding and contracting, and moving left and right. My gun was capable of 1/3 MOA at 100 yards, as I have shot that size groups many times with it. But, not under those conditions at that distance, with me behind the gun.
However, if you ask him what those particular guns can shoot, he will tell you that they are capable of 1/4 MOA or better. If he ask him what he gets from them, he will tell you that it depends on the conditions under which he shoots ......off a concrete rest in dead calm, ideal shooting conditions .......or off the hood of his truck, at a coyote standing in a hay field 400 yards out with a 15 mph cross wind. lol
I just find it amazing that so many internet posters can achieve "typical" groups from .25" to .33" at 100 yards with only 10x power scopes. A lot of those folks hang out at those sniper forums. They must be an amazing group of shooters.
Give up caffeinated beverages, get in top physical shape, possess extremely good eyesight, learn proper trigger control and bench technique, shoot under ideal atmospheric conditions on the proper target and you might find it less difficult than you imagined. lol
When you start adding in the wide variety of human factors and all those other things that affect accuracy, other than the rifle and load themselves, then it becomes very difficult.
I have a friend who I have seen shoot five shot groups in the .1's with his Sharp Shooter Supply tuned Savage FVSS in 25/06 and the middle .2's with his tuned .300 Win. Mag. BVSS at 100 yards. Does he do that well all the time? Of course not, but he does it often enough under ideal conditions that I know his guns and loads are capable of it and that it can be done under the right conditions, if he does his part properly. He's a better long distance shot than am I. He spends more time working up the most accurate loads for his rifles, than do I. So, he shoots better than do I. And, I do not begrudge him that fact.
I saw him shoot a 3" 5 shot group at 500 yards with his Savage .300 Win. Mag. under conditions my .22-250 could only get about an 8" group. The mirage was terrible. As I was looking through my 6.5X20 Leupold VariX III, the orange target dots we were using were expanding and contracting, and moving left and right. My gun was capable of 1/3 MOA at 100 yards, as I have shot that size groups many times with it. But, not under those conditions at that distance, with me behind the gun.
However, if you ask him what those particular guns can shoot, he will tell you that they are capable of 1/4 MOA or better. If he ask him what he gets from them, he will tell you that it depends on the conditions under which he shoots ......off a concrete rest in dead calm, ideal shooting conditions .......or off the hood of his truck, at a coyote standing in a hay field 400 yards out with a 15 mph cross wind. lol
jagrdawger
New member
CDR hit the nail on the head. The word "typical" is the troublesome part. I have enough targets with little holes to know under the right conditions I can and I can repeat it multiple times under those conditions. Change one condition it may be a challenge, change multiple conditions at the same time and my "typical" group expands relative to the change in conditions.
CWeeks
New member
Sub MOA at 500 yards would be a real feet for you and me even if the wind wasn't blowing. That is a long shot for those type of groups. A 3 inch group would be a rather good group at 500 yards, unless you have tweaked it all out to be a long range sport shooter then the groups could tighten up.
I shoot a Howa 1500, with a boyd stock, heavy barrel, had a trigger job done on it, 4X16 scope and she keeps real nice groups at even 300 yards. 100-200 yards sub MOA is a given if you are at a bench. Between 250-300 the groups loosen up a bit bit are 1.5 or so inch groups, out to 500 who knows but what I can tell you is I have killed several large game animals past 600 yards so they are very capable of great distances, if you are familiar with the rifle.
I shoot a Howa 1500, with a boyd stock, heavy barrel, had a trigger job done on it, 4X16 scope and she keeps real nice groups at even 300 yards. 100-200 yards sub MOA is a given if you are at a bench. Between 250-300 the groups loosen up a bit bit are 1.5 or so inch groups, out to 500 who knows but what I can tell you is I have killed several large game animals past 600 yards so they are very capable of great distances, if you are familiar with the rifle.
kyotekiller25
Well-known member
If you can hold a 8" group at 500-600 yards, your going to kill any deer or elk you aim at, period, save the gale force winds of course. Thats just common sense not to shoot.
WIth todays technology, its not that hard. Get out and practice and you'll be amazed at what your rifle/load/and you can do. Its not rocket science.....
WIth todays technology, its not that hard. Get out and practice and you'll be amazed at what your rifle/load/and you can do. Its not rocket science.....
dan newberry
New member
Quote:
do you think the savage police and tactical series rifles model 10 would shoot sub moa at 500 yards in 308? been thinking about buying one with the hs stock. lee
Yes... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
do you think the savage police and tactical series rifles model 10 would shoot sub moa at 500 yards in 308? been thinking about buying one with the hs stock. lee
Yes... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
savagerookie
New member
I just bought a barreled action (10fp/20") in .308 and the guy I bought it from gave me the dope for MOA out to 800 yrds, I'll believe it when i see it, but still an impressive claim. The guy works evening at GA Precision in KC so I'll take his word on it until I can prove otherwise.
DogBeGone
New member
Quote:
Sub MOA at 500 yards would be a real feet for you and me even if the wind wasn't blowing. That is a long shot for those type of groups. A 3 inch group would be a rather good group at 500 yards, unless you have tweaked it all out to be a long range sport shooter then the groups could tighten up.
I shoot a Howa 1500, with a boyd stock, heavy barrel, had a trigger job done on it, 4X16 scope and she keeps real nice groups at even 300 yards. 100-200 yards sub MOA is a given if you are at a bench. Between 250-300 the groups loosen up a bit bit are 1.5 or so inch groups, out to 500 who knows but what I can tell you is I have killed several large game animals past 600 yards so they are very capable of great distances, if you are familiar with the rifle.
As I suspected, I guess there are many folks who think an MOA group means a group under 1.1" at ANY distance. This is not the case.
At 500 yards, minute of angle= approx. 5.5"
So the 3" group you mention above as being a "real feet" [sic], would in fact be much closer to .6 moa.
And the groups with your Howa that you mention are also closer to half moa.
It's important to understand this.
Sub MOA at 500 yards would be a real feet for you and me even if the wind wasn't blowing. That is a long shot for those type of groups. A 3 inch group would be a rather good group at 500 yards, unless you have tweaked it all out to be a long range sport shooter then the groups could tighten up.
I shoot a Howa 1500, with a boyd stock, heavy barrel, had a trigger job done on it, 4X16 scope and she keeps real nice groups at even 300 yards. 100-200 yards sub MOA is a given if you are at a bench. Between 250-300 the groups loosen up a bit bit are 1.5 or so inch groups, out to 500 who knows but what I can tell you is I have killed several large game animals past 600 yards so they are very capable of great distances, if you are familiar with the rifle.
As I suspected, I guess there are many folks who think an MOA group means a group under 1.1" at ANY distance. This is not the case.
At 500 yards, minute of angle= approx. 5.5"
So the 3" group you mention above as being a "real feet" [sic], would in fact be much closer to .6 moa.
And the groups with your Howa that you mention are also closer to half moa.
It's important to understand this.
Some valid opinions & great advice being shared here. I'll weigh in my $.02...
The 2 Savage rifles I have (a 12FV in .223 & 10FP in .308; accutrigger models w/aftermarket stocks) and a "custom" 6.5x284 built off a Stevens 200 action are definitely capable of amazing accuracy out to 500+yds. Like many have stated previously, the shooter and atmospheric conditions play a much great factor in accuracy than the actual build of the Savage in question. Granted, they make a shooter's job easier by using excellent barrels, a floating bolt head and AccuTrigger, but they guy/gal squeezing the trigger and reading wind is what brings home sub .7MOA groups at 300+ yds.
I do believe that many shooters are intimidated at distances over 150yds. This is understandable as there aren't many ranges where one can practice beyond 100yds. I think that many shooters, given the opportunity to practice, would see that making accurate shots beyond 300 yds with a Savage 10FP-quality rifle isn't that hard with a little practice. In the end, trigger time shooting at the longer ranges makes a better marksman.
My first time EVER shooting @ 600yds was with my 6.5x284. I took 2 shots to determine POI, adjusted the scope, and fired the group below. I am NOT God's gift to marksmanship and my shooting mechanics, while decent, are certainly in need of improvement. If I can do this, I'd say 70% of all shooters could do the same:
The 2 Savage rifles I have (a 12FV in .223 & 10FP in .308; accutrigger models w/aftermarket stocks) and a "custom" 6.5x284 built off a Stevens 200 action are definitely capable of amazing accuracy out to 500+yds. Like many have stated previously, the shooter and atmospheric conditions play a much great factor in accuracy than the actual build of the Savage in question. Granted, they make a shooter's job easier by using excellent barrels, a floating bolt head and AccuTrigger, but they guy/gal squeezing the trigger and reading wind is what brings home sub .7MOA groups at 300+ yds.
I do believe that many shooters are intimidated at distances over 150yds. This is understandable as there aren't many ranges where one can practice beyond 100yds. I think that many shooters, given the opportunity to practice, would see that making accurate shots beyond 300 yds with a Savage 10FP-quality rifle isn't that hard with a little practice. In the end, trigger time shooting at the longer ranges makes a better marksman.
My first time EVER shooting @ 600yds was with my 6.5x284. I took 2 shots to determine POI, adjusted the scope, and fired the group below. I am NOT God's gift to marksmanship and my shooting mechanics, while decent, are certainly in need of improvement. If I can do this, I'd say 70% of all shooters could do the same:
My 'long ranger' started out life as an FP10. With a 26" Benchmark barrel, SSS trigger, action timed and trued by SSS, Stockade stock, 36X Leupold, a lot of load development and all of the stars lined up will do 1 MOA out to 1000 and under 1 MOA at 500, 600 and 700. I have been shooting long distance for over 30 years so I do have a few good shooting habits.
I will agree that having a rifle that will do it does not mean that it will happen. It takes a lot of practice in different conditions and a little luck doesn't hurt either.
I will agree that having a rifle that will do it does not mean that it will happen. It takes a lot of practice in different conditions and a little luck doesn't hurt either.