W. Chad Shultz
Member
Curious if anyone has one of these and what there thoughts are on it?
Seekins Havak Rifle
- Thread starter W. Chad Shultz
- Start date
Varminterror
New member
I have about 2,200rnds on mine in a year and a half, about halfway through its second barrel. I bought mine for the wrong purpose, and it has treated me well.
For a hunting rifle, it's a great rifle for the money. For a competition rifle, it's actually a very good deal. But overall, it misses a lot of marks by just a tiny bit, and Seekins really wasn't ready to be a vendor for this product line - even over 2 years into it, they're still not ready to support their products.
I'll give the good, bad, and ugly below, but I really like my Havak, and among rifles like Kimber, Christiansen, etc, it's a very good rifle. I wouldn't buy one of their actions bare, but as a part of their overall package in a complete rifle, it's a great deal.
Long version:
The money side - as a "factory custom rifle," the Havak is a very good deal. Mine came with a Timney 510 ($150), a McMillan Game Warden ($650), Seekins DBM ($180), 20moa Seekisn rail (~$90), Rock Creek barrel ($350 + smithing costs), and 2 magpul AICS 5rnd mags ($60), with a shelf price of $1800. That only leaves about $320 for the action, and doesn't leave a cent for the bedding work, or barrel threading and chambering. If you look at their Havak actions as a stand alone action, it's priced right where it should be - unless you have one of their readily available 15% or 25% off discount codes. It's an integral lug, and it comes with DLC on the bolt, standard. But it's a bolt on rail. For $1250, it should have an integral rail, but the DLC coating makes up the difference to be fair price in the market - figure it's really a $900 action with a $250 DLC upgrade, plus a $90 rail. Other actions running $1250ish, like Defiance Deviant, would take an upcharge for DLC.
The Barrel: The factory barrel which comes on them, unless something has changed, is a Rock Creek blank, threaded, chambered, and fluted by Seekins. Mine shot "ok" out of the box, only about 1/2-3/4moa. But it started losing speed at 500rnds. By 1000rnds, it was losing about 15fps per 100rnds fired. I was dumping an extra half grain of powder to jump to the next node, and I was still falling about 200fps slower than when the barrel was new. Absolutely unacceptable. I contacted Seekins about it - they didn't have a barrel available even if I sent it in for Warranty repair, and Rock Creek wasn't any help - the guy (obviously full of schitt) said he normally gets 3500-4000 rounds out of a 6mm Creedmoor before he starts seeing velocity loss.
The Trigger: The Timney 510 which came in mine is an ok hunting trigger, but terrible for what I need. The new versions come with a Timney Elite Hunter, which is an improvement over the 510, but still not a trigger which could or should be used in a competition rifle. I dropped a Jewel HVR into mine and have been happy as a clam.
The Bottom Metal: The bottom metal they use for the HP1 (and same on the new version) is a non-standard footprint, no idea why they went that route. The Bravo model uses a KRG bravo chassis, so the bottom metal isn't an issue, but I'm not a big fan of the Bravo. The HP1/2 bottom metal does feed and drop mags well, and the mag release is pretty easy to run, and doesn't have the kidney stabbing feature of standard M5 pattern bottom metal. Overall, it's a great bottom metal.
The Action itself: The action is VERY much cock on close. Many shooters really don't like that sensation. It kinda feels like you're crush fitting over sized rounds all of the time. It took a little getting used to, but now, I'm running it as fast as I ever have with a Surgeon or Defiance. It's exceptionally slick with the DLC coating, and it runs very well dry, wet (rain), oily, dusty, you name it. It's cut for AW mags, and the unique 90degree throw 4 lug design feeds exceptionally well from them. It'll feed very well from AICS centerfeed mags too, but it does take some tweaking of the lips to clear the bolt body. The integral lug is great, the bolt handle is attractive - albeit a bit small for a competition rifle), but long enough for for what I need. The lugged optic rail is a nice touch as well. Without question, the action feeds great, and locks up tight. The 4 lug design had great contact right out of the box. My smith indicated the bolt face, lugs, action lugs, and action face when he installed the new barrel, he said the action is as true as it ever should be. Considering there's only about $300 value in the complete rifle to go towards the action, it's a phenomenal deal. Given one of their common 25% discount codes, one of their bare actions for $800 is a heck of a deal for a great quality, well featured action.
The Stock: Mine came with a McMillan Game Warden stock, which is a great stock, but it really needs an adjustable cheek riser to be able to use optics, especially the big optics I prefer. I had to screw a Victor Company Universal Cheek riser on mine, plus 2 spacers, to get the right comb height. It's inexpensive to add that cheek riser, but for $2,000, it shouldn't be 5/8" off on comb height. I had to drill through the fiberglass, strip out the low density fill, and fill part of the stock with epoxy as a footings for threaded anchors to mount the cheek riser. It works great, but I have a $25 cheek riser on a $650 stock, on an $1800 rifle... They dropped the McMillan stock pretty quickly, but their in-house version has the same low comb.
Customer Service & Issues I had with mine: The bad news here - if you buy one, you're basically on your own. I had a few issues with mine, and they weren't able to remedy them. One quirk I found - the bolt shroud uses a non-standard thread pitch, such I had to make my own firing pin compression fixture. I wouldn't really need to service a firing pin assembly, except that my gunsmith noticed my cocking piece was terribly galled after only about 6,000 cycles (1471 live fire rounds, and about 3:1 that many dry fires). Unacceptable wear after such a short time. So I had to replace that - and it took about 3 months for Seekins to figure out how to support their product.
While I was asking to buy another cocking piece to replace the damaged original one, I asked if I could buy a spare firing pin assembly in case I had a failure at a match. It took them a month to even figure out how to sell me a spare firing pin assembly, and another week to determine what the price should be (which was $40 more than a Defiance Deviant FPA). They were generous enough to send me a replacement cocking piece for free as a warranty replacement item since it was obviously not properly hardened, which was great - except they forgot to mail it with the firing pin assembly I bought, until I called again and again for a few days - when it got here, it looked like it hadn't been finish carded at all, just rough coated and mailed, and it doesn't match the profile of the original part, or of the one in the spare FPA I bought.
I bought mine in January of last year. Seekins had been saying for about 5 months at that point they would be releasing drop-in, prethreaded and chambered barrels "in a few months." Well, I've had it for a year and a half and they still aren't selling barrels. When I called this winter to get it rebarreled between competition seasons, they couldn't even take it in and replace the barrel on a Warranty repair or a paid replacement, because they were so far behind on barrels just to get the rifles out the door. I went a year of calling every month asking, "when can I order a new barrel?" and the answer kept pushing farther and farther out - "in a few months." Tomorrow never came - and still hasn't, as they still aren't meeting their promise of selling barrels. I bought a pair of Bartlein blanks and had a precision rifle smith spin them up. It shot far smaller than the factory barrel, and has held velocity far better. I'm at 700rnds and haven't had my velocity change at all, whereas I'd already lost about 100fps by now in the factory barrel. I love the idea of a (non-barrel nut) drop-in, pre-chambered, pre-threaded barrel, but they're not delivering on their commitment to produce them.
I also asked Seekins to sell me either another magazine release lever or an entire bottom metal, such I could run different length release levers for AICS and AIAW mags. But like the barrels, firing pin assemblies, and cocking pieces, Seekins wasn't prepared to support the product. I hit a dead end. So I ended up stuck bending and trimming mag lips to make the rifle feed universally from all of the different mags I have. They couldn't even sell me a full bottom metal, since it's a non-standard model they don't offer for anything else. Most guys wouldn't ever have that issue, since they don't need to run 10, 12, and 14rnd mags depending upon a specific stage design with their hunting rifles.
A lot of that sounds very negative - because much of it is - but it's really only negative because I'm shooting mine as a competition rifle, and I try to give unbiased reviews. It's a fantastic hunting rifle, and a viable mid-level competition rifle. But a Defiance Deviant, Surgeon 591, Impact 737R, it ain't...
I love mine, and I'd buy it again instead of buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, Savage 10 stealth, or Magpul 700 for competition, but be ready to be on your own for any issues.
For a hunting rifle, it's a great rifle for the money. For a competition rifle, it's actually a very good deal. But overall, it misses a lot of marks by just a tiny bit, and Seekins really wasn't ready to be a vendor for this product line - even over 2 years into it, they're still not ready to support their products.
I'll give the good, bad, and ugly below, but I really like my Havak, and among rifles like Kimber, Christiansen, etc, it's a very good rifle. I wouldn't buy one of their actions bare, but as a part of their overall package in a complete rifle, it's a great deal.
Long version:
The money side - as a "factory custom rifle," the Havak is a very good deal. Mine came with a Timney 510 ($150), a McMillan Game Warden ($650), Seekins DBM ($180), 20moa Seekisn rail (~$90), Rock Creek barrel ($350 + smithing costs), and 2 magpul AICS 5rnd mags ($60), with a shelf price of $1800. That only leaves about $320 for the action, and doesn't leave a cent for the bedding work, or barrel threading and chambering. If you look at their Havak actions as a stand alone action, it's priced right where it should be - unless you have one of their readily available 15% or 25% off discount codes. It's an integral lug, and it comes with DLC on the bolt, standard. But it's a bolt on rail. For $1250, it should have an integral rail, but the DLC coating makes up the difference to be fair price in the market - figure it's really a $900 action with a $250 DLC upgrade, plus a $90 rail. Other actions running $1250ish, like Defiance Deviant, would take an upcharge for DLC.
The Barrel: The factory barrel which comes on them, unless something has changed, is a Rock Creek blank, threaded, chambered, and fluted by Seekins. Mine shot "ok" out of the box, only about 1/2-3/4moa. But it started losing speed at 500rnds. By 1000rnds, it was losing about 15fps per 100rnds fired. I was dumping an extra half grain of powder to jump to the next node, and I was still falling about 200fps slower than when the barrel was new. Absolutely unacceptable. I contacted Seekins about it - they didn't have a barrel available even if I sent it in for Warranty repair, and Rock Creek wasn't any help - the guy (obviously full of schitt) said he normally gets 3500-4000 rounds out of a 6mm Creedmoor before he starts seeing velocity loss.
The Trigger: The Timney 510 which came in mine is an ok hunting trigger, but terrible for what I need. The new versions come with a Timney Elite Hunter, which is an improvement over the 510, but still not a trigger which could or should be used in a competition rifle. I dropped a Jewel HVR into mine and have been happy as a clam.
The Bottom Metal: The bottom metal they use for the HP1 (and same on the new version) is a non-standard footprint, no idea why they went that route. The Bravo model uses a KRG bravo chassis, so the bottom metal isn't an issue, but I'm not a big fan of the Bravo. The HP1/2 bottom metal does feed and drop mags well, and the mag release is pretty easy to run, and doesn't have the kidney stabbing feature of standard M5 pattern bottom metal. Overall, it's a great bottom metal.
The Action itself: The action is VERY much cock on close. Many shooters really don't like that sensation. It kinda feels like you're crush fitting over sized rounds all of the time. It took a little getting used to, but now, I'm running it as fast as I ever have with a Surgeon or Defiance. It's exceptionally slick with the DLC coating, and it runs very well dry, wet (rain), oily, dusty, you name it. It's cut for AW mags, and the unique 90degree throw 4 lug design feeds exceptionally well from them. It'll feed very well from AICS centerfeed mags too, but it does take some tweaking of the lips to clear the bolt body. The integral lug is great, the bolt handle is attractive - albeit a bit small for a competition rifle), but long enough for for what I need. The lugged optic rail is a nice touch as well. Without question, the action feeds great, and locks up tight. The 4 lug design had great contact right out of the box. My smith indicated the bolt face, lugs, action lugs, and action face when he installed the new barrel, he said the action is as true as it ever should be. Considering there's only about $300 value in the complete rifle to go towards the action, it's a phenomenal deal. Given one of their common 25% discount codes, one of their bare actions for $800 is a heck of a deal for a great quality, well featured action.
The Stock: Mine came with a McMillan Game Warden stock, which is a great stock, but it really needs an adjustable cheek riser to be able to use optics, especially the big optics I prefer. I had to screw a Victor Company Universal Cheek riser on mine, plus 2 spacers, to get the right comb height. It's inexpensive to add that cheek riser, but for $2,000, it shouldn't be 5/8" off on comb height. I had to drill through the fiberglass, strip out the low density fill, and fill part of the stock with epoxy as a footings for threaded anchors to mount the cheek riser. It works great, but I have a $25 cheek riser on a $650 stock, on an $1800 rifle... They dropped the McMillan stock pretty quickly, but their in-house version has the same low comb.
Customer Service & Issues I had with mine: The bad news here - if you buy one, you're basically on your own. I had a few issues with mine, and they weren't able to remedy them. One quirk I found - the bolt shroud uses a non-standard thread pitch, such I had to make my own firing pin compression fixture. I wouldn't really need to service a firing pin assembly, except that my gunsmith noticed my cocking piece was terribly galled after only about 6,000 cycles (1471 live fire rounds, and about 3:1 that many dry fires). Unacceptable wear after such a short time. So I had to replace that - and it took about 3 months for Seekins to figure out how to support their product.
While I was asking to buy another cocking piece to replace the damaged original one, I asked if I could buy a spare firing pin assembly in case I had a failure at a match. It took them a month to even figure out how to sell me a spare firing pin assembly, and another week to determine what the price should be (which was $40 more than a Defiance Deviant FPA). They were generous enough to send me a replacement cocking piece for free as a warranty replacement item since it was obviously not properly hardened, which was great - except they forgot to mail it with the firing pin assembly I bought, until I called again and again for a few days - when it got here, it looked like it hadn't been finish carded at all, just rough coated and mailed, and it doesn't match the profile of the original part, or of the one in the spare FPA I bought.
I bought mine in January of last year. Seekins had been saying for about 5 months at that point they would be releasing drop-in, prethreaded and chambered barrels "in a few months." Well, I've had it for a year and a half and they still aren't selling barrels. When I called this winter to get it rebarreled between competition seasons, they couldn't even take it in and replace the barrel on a Warranty repair or a paid replacement, because they were so far behind on barrels just to get the rifles out the door. I went a year of calling every month asking, "when can I order a new barrel?" and the answer kept pushing farther and farther out - "in a few months." Tomorrow never came - and still hasn't, as they still aren't meeting their promise of selling barrels. I bought a pair of Bartlein blanks and had a precision rifle smith spin them up. It shot far smaller than the factory barrel, and has held velocity far better. I'm at 700rnds and haven't had my velocity change at all, whereas I'd already lost about 100fps by now in the factory barrel. I love the idea of a (non-barrel nut) drop-in, pre-chambered, pre-threaded barrel, but they're not delivering on their commitment to produce them.
I also asked Seekins to sell me either another magazine release lever or an entire bottom metal, such I could run different length release levers for AICS and AIAW mags. But like the barrels, firing pin assemblies, and cocking pieces, Seekins wasn't prepared to support the product. I hit a dead end. So I ended up stuck bending and trimming mag lips to make the rifle feed universally from all of the different mags I have. They couldn't even sell me a full bottom metal, since it's a non-standard model they don't offer for anything else. Most guys wouldn't ever have that issue, since they don't need to run 10, 12, and 14rnd mags depending upon a specific stage design with their hunting rifles.
A lot of that sounds very negative - because much of it is - but it's really only negative because I'm shooting mine as a competition rifle, and I try to give unbiased reviews. It's a fantastic hunting rifle, and a viable mid-level competition rifle. But a Defiance Deviant, Surgeon 591, Impact 737R, it ain't...
I love mine, and I'd buy it again instead of buying a Ruger Precision Rifle, Savage 10 stealth, or Magpul 700 for competition, but be ready to be on your own for any issues.
W. Chad Shultz
Member
Thank you, great info.
Varminterror
New member
I took that photo of my rifle at the Precision Rifle Series Jurassic Classic at Lone Star Training Center in Texas last year. The name has since changed, since the 2018 Jurassic was the last match Gordie directed. I didn’t go to the Lone Star Showdown this season, but I saw photos that they didn’t use the swing this year.
The obstacle is a swingset. The “swing” is shaped like a Z with right angles. There’s a lower platform and an upper, which is seen in my photo above. For that stage, if I recall correctly, we shot 6 rounds - 2 each at 3 targets - at prairie dog targets from the lower platform. It’s a little too high to go prone, and a little too low to kneel. The rifle had to be fully supported by the swing, not touching any support on the ground other than the shooter. Then we had to step up and shoot 4 rounds - 2 rounds each at 2 targets - from the upper platform, standing fully on the swingset, feet on the lower platform, rifle on the upper.
“Boat simulators” and “jiggly beds” are pretty common in Precision Rifle Competition. The Lone Star Training Center swingset is rather unique, and presents a significant challenge, but I expect it simulates standing supported fire from a watercraft gunwale better than most of the swinging flat platforms. Most boat simulators are flat platforms hung from 4 posts at the corners, so the “boat deck” stays relatively level as it swings. The LSTC swing hangs more like a true swing, with the chains supported close together overhead, so when it swings forward, you see sky, and when it swings backward, you see dirt 30 yards in front of you - and then have to deliver shots on targets 600+ yards out while it swings between.
It’s a very fun apparatus from which to shoot. I hope they choose to use it again next season, but I do understand why they might not, in the current political competition climate.
The obstacle is a swingset. The “swing” is shaped like a Z with right angles. There’s a lower platform and an upper, which is seen in my photo above. For that stage, if I recall correctly, we shot 6 rounds - 2 each at 3 targets - at prairie dog targets from the lower platform. It’s a little too high to go prone, and a little too low to kneel. The rifle had to be fully supported by the swing, not touching any support on the ground other than the shooter. Then we had to step up and shoot 4 rounds - 2 rounds each at 2 targets - from the upper platform, standing fully on the swingset, feet on the lower platform, rifle on the upper.
“Boat simulators” and “jiggly beds” are pretty common in Precision Rifle Competition. The Lone Star Training Center swingset is rather unique, and presents a significant challenge, but I expect it simulates standing supported fire from a watercraft gunwale better than most of the swinging flat platforms. Most boat simulators are flat platforms hung from 4 posts at the corners, so the “boat deck” stays relatively level as it swings. The LSTC swing hangs more like a true swing, with the chains supported close together overhead, so when it swings forward, you see sky, and when it swings backward, you see dirt 30 yards in front of you - and then have to deliver shots on targets 600+ yards out while it swings between.
It’s a very fun apparatus from which to shoot. I hope they choose to use it again next season, but I do understand why they might not, in the current political competition climate.
Varminterror
New member
Rereading my original post above, I want to be sure I’m giving a fair shake to the Seekins Havak. For the money, the rifles are fantastic, and also for the money, the actions are very good. I have a handful of 25% off certificates picked up at rifle matches, such I could buy another action for ~$800, or three. I’ll be buying another Havak action for a custom bolt action pistol project. I know when I shoot a match, any miss is mine. It could be a little easier to close, but it puts the rounds under my crosshairs, wherever they are when I pull the trigger.
The Bartlein barrel I had installed for this season has yet to fire a group as large as 1/2moa. My initial load work up was .13 to .47moa for 41.0 to 42.4grn H4350. Hitting sub-MOA targets at 800yrds isn’t accidental.
The Bartlein barrel I had installed for this season has yet to fire a group as large as 1/2moa. My initial load work up was .13 to .47moa for 41.0 to 42.4grn H4350. Hitting sub-MOA targets at 800yrds isn’t accidental.