Tell me why I need a better scope than a Weaver v series etc?

V

varminter .223

Well-known member
For working up loads and for calling coyotes how big is the gain with a high end scope? I can't ever seem to get myself to pay that much for a scope when I could buy another rifle. I have never looked through or shot a high end scope. Are the adjustments tighter? Are they required for consistent sub .5" groups. I bought a Jewel trigger and became a trigger snob, will a good scope do the same to me?
 
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If it works for you you don't need more. I shoot coyotes, targets and load developed with Weaver's and scopes in the same price range they work for me. I've never lost a shooting competition, missed a coyote, failed to fill a big game tag or failed to work up a load because of my scope.

If I got into long range shooting or very precise branch competition, I suspect that higher end/more precise scopes may be in order, but then my rifles would have to be upgraded substantially also.

One thing certain X's can't substitute for quality and X's are highly over rated. I do most of my hunting with 1-4 and 1.5-6 scopes, and again never lost an animal because I was under sçoped, lost a couple of opertunities do to too much magnification.
 
I'm a Nightforce fan now, but I also shoot a 3-9x40 Leupold on my calling rifle and had a 6-18x40 for long range for a while. And I used to have an off-brand scope made by Weaver. Most of them have sufficed just fine, especially with my young eyes. However, I've used scopes, either by different manufacturers or lower tier scopes, that haven't tracked and haven't held zero. These have caused major headaches sighting in or have caused me to miss coyotes because they couldn't handle day-in and day-out use hunting. Think about how hard you run your equipment, and decide accordingly.

Long story short, my opinion is for a dedicated, go-to rifle or a rifle used for competition (either hunting or shooting) it is smart to invest in something that will perform and give you peace of mind. I need the confidence that tipping my rifle over off the bipod did not move my sight and that if I need to dial for a 600 yard shot it will track and return to zero. For just shooting groups off a bench, you could probably get by with anything.

As a side note, investing in your mounting system is another smart move to consider. Quality mounts will absorb a lot of bumps and abuse, IMO. I had my rifle fall off a 15' haystack with a standard Leupold VX-II on it and my POI was only ~1.5" at 100 yards. I think a lot of that had to do with my mounting system.
 
Originally Posted By: varminter .223I bought a Jewel trigger and became a trigger snob, will a good scope do the same to me?

I can't tell you if you "need" a better scope, but the answer to the question I quoted above is-

Yes it sure will.
 
Do you think that having a Nightforce 4-16 scope would reduce 100 yard groups compared to a Weaver V-16 on the same rifle? I would suspect a GOOD trigger would have far more impact on group size than spending an extra grand on a scope. Weaver's have surprisingly good glass and tracking ability, but they lack turrets and side parralax adjustments which takes them out of the LR game. I sincerely think that if your rifle won't shoot half inch groups with a Weaver V series scope, just spending an extra grand on JUST the scope isn't going to make any difference.

I do agree that when you move that target out there a ways where turrets and parralax adjustment come into play moving up to a scope built for that shooting will make big improvement.
 
Weaver has not manufactured a scope since they left El Paso. If you have an off brand it wasn't manufactured by Weaver. Different Weaver models are manufactured in different plants around the world to Weaver specs. The Weaver V-series has been traditionally manufactured at Light Optic Works in Japan a large step up from China or the Phillipines. I believe that most of the parts for Nightforce scope are made in Japan also.
 
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Originally Posted By: AWSDo you think that having a Nightforce 4-16 scope would reduce 100 yard groups compared to a Weaver V-16 on the same rifle? I would suspect a GOOD trigger would have far more impact on group size than spending an extra grand on a scope. Weaver's have surprisingly good glass and tracking ability, but they lack turrets and side parralax adjustments which takes them out of the LR game. I sincerely think that if your rifle won't shoot half inch groups with a Weaver V series scope, just spending an extra grand on JUST the scope isn't going to make any difference.



No, not at all. I could shoot a .5 group at 100 with a Barfska, and if that's all I want to do then I'd buy $200 scopes. However, the OP said that he would also be coyote hunting and that is where you'll start to see the benefits of a higher-end scope. Mind you, I'm talking in generalities, I haven't used Weaver and I have no judgement on them.

For coyote hunting, it's irrelevant if you want to shoot .5 MOA groups off a bench because you're not going to be shooting .5 MOA groups off of sticks. Durability, repeatability, glass clarity, light transmission, etc. all come into play as soon as you start hunting. It's really a matter of an individuals situation and what he might be interested in doing in the future.

I finally dug up the brand of that scope. It was a Nitrex scope I bought from Natchez, and Natchez listed it as the "Weaver Nitrex TR-2 Riflescope". So I don't know the whole history on the scope, but it's had Weaver's name linked with it.

P.S. I have nothing against Weaver or many other riflescopes. With as serious as I am with coyote hunting and long range shooting, I prefer to invest in a scope that will not fail for those rifles. I agree with AWS, if what you're doing works then who's to say you're doing it wrong?
 
Originally Posted By: fw707Originally Posted By: varminter .223I bought a Jewel trigger and became a trigger snob, will a good scope do the same to me?

I can't tell you if you "need" a better scope, but the answer to the question I quoted above is-

Yes it sure will.

+1000

I like triggers too but after using good glass, you would rather have glock trigger on a Defiance action than have look back through fuzzy/dim glass.

Nothing at all wrong with the scope your using. Wasn't anything wrong with the original trigger either... Kind of the same exact story - ease of use & quality go a long way.
 
I guess the main point to my question is that when working up loads I always shoot 5 shot groups and hate to hunt with anything that won't hang in that .6 ish [maybe an occasional.7 ish] or better area. I use mainly 4-12 or 4-16s on my hunting rifles and have acquired quite a few rifles over the years hence I need quite a few scopes. I fall in the "lots of decent scopes instead of a few really nice scopes" bracket. Since I like to keep them .6 or better,I shoot them occasionally and I find it tough to be 100% sure bigger groups or those .8 and .9 flyers aren't operator error with only a 3-9. Every time I put a 3-9 on [since I feel that is a better hunting power] I end up replacing it with more power after a few groups open up. I guess I was wondering what you guys had experienced regard what one could be been giving up in accuracy with scopes in the 300 dollar range. Sounds like not much, given the sub moa accuracy I currently am getting out rifles with factory barrels and no action work.
 
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I guessing that when you go back down to a 3x9 you aren't concentrating enough on your shooting and blowing the groups. Hunter Benchrest is shot with a maximum of 6x scope and consistently small groups are recorded. Your RIFLE isn't going to be more accurate with a higher power scope it is just EASIER for you to shoot it more accurately.

These were shot with a 50 year old 3x scope and a a rifle of the same vintage, shot the first group bottom and saw haow nice it was and decided to shoot another to prove it wasn't a fluke.



Same rifle with an old steel tube Weaver. 300 yards



This was with a O/U combo 12ga 5.6x52R(22 Savage Highpower)

 
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I assure it has nothing to do with concentration. It has to do with not being able to physically see where the crosshairs are in relation to bull. The lower the power the less ability one has to control it. I can shoot groups in the .3s with a 9x as well but it isn't gonna happen every time what I am trying to figure out is why some don't. When I shoot a 16 plus power scope I know exactly where the cross hairs are. Once the load data is correct I am no longer wortied about .1" of a dead on hold in the field.
 
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Probably 16x if the rifle and loads are up to the task that day. Hence all my main calling rifles have v16s on them. 16 is total over kill imo for hunting but who wants to change scopes after getting things super tuned. I often hear guys on these forums claim you are better off spending your money on better clearer glass than more magnification. Tight 3 shots groups are pretty frequent but that 4th and 5th one can get tricky. I shoot them without any cooling time as well and If I can get 5 shots to hang in there consistently at .600" or a tad better I know that if any missing happens I am to blame, not the equipment. I don't waste time with equipment that I am not 100% confident in.
 
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If you can shoot consistent .3's with a V-16, which are exceptional groups for a hunting rifle and would be hard to beat with any scope but can't at 9x why do you think throwing a a $1000 at the problem will cure it. Your V-9 will hold very well for the first three shots and then you groups open .2-.3", it's not the scope. Where in coyote hunting would a .3 increase on shots 4&5 make a bit of difference, only the first one counts.

Nightforce is not known for their exceptional glass but their tank like toughness, repeatability, and usability for LR shooting. If those are qualities that are important to you get a NF, but there are trade offs, a NF 4-16 is a full pound heavier than a Weaver 4-16. Then there is the $1500 difference in price.

The NC 2.5-10x42 at 19-20 oz looks like pretty nice hunting scope but at $1700 for me it would do nothing for me that my Elite 4200 at 1/4 the price will do. I call coyotes, getting them close is the rush not popping one in the next zip code. I have no need for accurate turrets(I never need to turn them), parralax adjustments, FFP reticle, or the extra poundage, with my rifles I can hold on fur to 300 yards so KISS goes a long way for me.

Now if you just have a hankering for a NF go out and buy the thing, you don't have to try and convince yourself that .3" at 100 yards on shot 4&5 means your scope is inadequate or faulty.

There isn't enough difference in the bottom end FOV between thee 3-9 and 4-16 to warrant even thinking about changing them out for hunting plus you have the X's on the top end of you need them. I run 1.5-6's on most of my coyote rifles for the 60' FOV for close in work and coyotes out to 300 yards, for brush country out to 200+ 1-4's give me up to a 90' FOV on my combo guns. The 2.5-10 is on a 22-250 not used much, mostly for backing up other hunters. I do use other higher power scopes for load development but that is just once or twice in a rifles lifetime from then on the rifle gets The same load, if I have different requirements for a hunting I grab the appropriate rifle not change ammo.

By the way I'll pay the shipping if your going to toss that POS Weaver V-9.

 
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Some people can get by with a Volkswagen and some prefer to drive a Porsche. The same applies to scopes. Once you own an exceptional alpha glass scope you'll never go back to using scopes with mediocre glass and poor tracking.

I'd rather pay $1500 for an alpha scope and put it on a $300 gun than vice versa. You can do things to a $300 gun to make them shoot better. There is nothing you can do to a $300 scope to make it better except replace it.
 
I think your going to have to add substantially to that $1550 to get ALPHA glass. NF isn't going to get you there. Think high end Swaro, Hensoldt or IOR for alpha glass, Japanese glass while outstanding still isn't up there with high end Euro glass.
 
Gent I've shot with on a regular basis for 6 or so years, who can afford any darn scope he wants and is someone to ask advice about: guns, cartridges, reloading, optics and etc. Been quite a number of times when the subject of scopes has been discussed among us shooting, his recommendation was to buy a Weaver V. Yep, he'll admit that other brand scopes may have better glass, but he's never been unhappy with turrets adjustments in a Weaver V. He thinks they are a good bargain and a very reliable scope.

I own no Weaver V scopes. Do own a few of the higher power Weaver Super Slams that are the top models of their scopes. Very nice glass in them and darn good/reliable turret adjustments in the Super Slams.
 
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