Thermal scanner vs scope

J

jwebster34

Member
Just curious which you would purchase first if you only had the money to buy one or the other. Most people that I have spoken with so far seem to say a thermal scanner and work with lights or night vision for time being can still get it done if you can't afford to buy everything. What does everyone here think?
 
Agree with "most people". A thermal scanner and digital NV allows you to see everything coming, and be fairly invisible for a not "break the bank price." I have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the new Sightmark Wraith Mini 2x16. Although I haven't used it calling, the night picture is pretty darn good even with the supplied 850nm light. It really rocks on the AR platform.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpAgree with "most people". A thermal scanner and digital NV allows you to see everything coming, and be fairly invisible for a not "break the bank price." I have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the new Sightmark Wraith Mini 2x16. Although I haven't used it calling, the night picture is pretty darn good even with the supplied 850nm light. It really rocks on the AR platform.

Thanks for the input. Sightmark, Pulsar, and newer AGM units will be on my radar in the future as far as scopes. For now, using coyote light, but want to invest in a scanner.
 

In a practical application it is better to buy the scanner first so that you can remain undetected when scanning as apposed to scanning with lights and then going to a thermal scope for the shot. There are also numerous choices out now for relatively low priced digital NV scopes that I see positive reviews on. That gives you another option for the shot instead of turning on a light.

That being said, there are numerous thermal units out now that are good at filling both roles. If you get a small, lightweight scope it can be used as a scanner and most units allow you to choose whether or not you have the reticle displayed when operating the unit. This way you can get some field experience with thermal and have a better idea of what you might need as a second unit.

I have several thermals and two of mine can be used as either. One is a 20mm Trijicon Reap IR and the other is an AGM TS25-384. If you go this route you will need to keep FOV in mind so that when you are using it as a scanner you will have a wide enough FOV to make it effective at covering a larger area and minimize your side to side head movement.

I really like the AGM Rattler line for this role as they are very small and light and produce a good image. They don't offer a 640 core with a lens smaller than 35mm so I have the 25mm lens with a 17micron core and the image is very acceptable at the ranges I hunt. If you are hunting longer ranges you can get the Rattler TS35-640 and get the core pitch down to 12 microns and have very good image quality for a reasonable price.

I use a camera handle with a small picatinny rail tapped 1/4x20 to mount the scope when it is being used as a scanner. Battery consumption is always an issue and I prefer not to use a battery pack for a scanner. The AGM Rattler software allows you to set the battery voltage for standard CR123 3v batteries or set it to 3.7v for rechargeable CR123 which is what I use.

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If using lights, and thermal scanner I would advise to have a scan light on while scanning with thermal. That way you won't freak the coyotes out when you pop on the gun light to shoot.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpIf using lights, and thermal scanner I would advise to have a scan light on while scanning with thermal. That way you won't freak the coyotes out when you pop on the gun light to shoot.

Thank you, yes that is what I have been told by others. I leave my gun light on at all times whether it is moving around or not. Most say they don't seem to spook too bad the light is on the entire time.
 
So Gman757 has some pretty good info on the Rattlers. I will throw out my take on that though. I like the Rattlers, good price point and a lot of bang for the buck. They make a great scanner that can be popped on a gun and used as a scope. The main thing I really don't like about them though is the CR123 batteries. I hate CR123's. And I hate external battery packs. I have used both and never will again if I can help it. What I did was save another 500 or so and go up the price scale into into the Varmint LRF. They use rechargeable 18650 batteries and to me that is waaaaay better.

I keep a Thermion XQ50 mounted on a gun all the time for shooting. I use the Varmint LRF as a scanner, or if I need a second gun for a loaner I will put it on there. Or, when I am making lots of long stalks for pigs I will put the Varmint LRF on a lighter AR in 300 HAMR for that. Because I am old and pounds equal pain on long stalks in plowed sand.

The Varmint is a bit heavier and bulkier than the Rattler, but not by much. Still way smaller and lighter than my Thermion. Both the Rattler and the Varmint come with excellent American Defense mounts that are really good at returning to zero.

Scanning with the thermal mounted to a gun on a tripod can be done. It sucks, but you can do it. Especially if you are hunting with a partner who has a second gun with thermal or if he has a scanner. I'm going to be one of the guys who says I would rather have the thermal on the gun and add a scanner later when you can. I'm not saying the other guys are wrong. There are good arguments for doing it their way. But I just really prefer shooting with a thermal over lights or DNV. I have done the DNV route before too. In the open country I hunt it just limited me too much.

Anyways, just my take on it.
 
Originally Posted By: JTPinTXSo Gman757 has some pretty good info on the Rattlers. I will throw out my take on that though. I like the Rattlers, good price point and a lot of bang for the buck. They make a great scanner that can be popped on a gun and used as a scope. The main thing I really don't like about them though is the CR123 batteries. I hate CR123's. And I hate external battery packs. I have used both and never will again if I can help it. What I did was save another 500 or so and go up the price scale into into the Varmint LRF. They use rechargeable 18650 batteries and to me that is waaaaay better.

I keep a Thermion XQ50 mounted on a gun all the time for shooting. I use the Varmint LRF as a scanner, or if I need a second gun for a loaner I will put it on there. Or, when I am making lots of long stalks for pigs I will put the Varmint LRF on a lighter AR in 300 HAMR for that. Because I am old and pounds equal pain on long stalks in plowed sand.

The Varmint is a bit heavier and bulkier than the Rattler, but not by much. Still way smaller and lighter than my Thermion. Both the Rattler and the Varmint come with excellent American Defense mounts that are really good at returning to zero.

Scanning with the thermal mounted to a gun on a tripod can be done. It sucks, but you can do it. Especially if you are hunting with a partner who has a second gun with thermal or if he has a scanner. I'm going to be one of the guys who says I would rather have the thermal on the gun and add a scanner later when you can. I'm not saying the other guys are wrong. There are good arguments for doing it their way. But I just really prefer shooting with a thermal over lights or DNV. I have done the DNV route before too. In the open country I hunt it just limited me too much.

Anyways, just my take on it.

This is a really good take on it. I have considered thermal scope on the gun and having to scan with the gun, which is a pain, but as you said it can be done. I'm really torn. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. I just will have to deal with what I choose as I won't have the funds to do both at once.
 
Originally Posted By: jwebster34This is a really good take on it. I have considered thermal scope on the gun and having to scan with the gun, which is a pain, but as you said it can be done. I'm really torn. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. I just will have to deal with what I choose as I won't have the funds to do both at once.

There is another option which I am not a big proponent of but it can work. The AGM Rattler uses a high quality clip on mount made by American Defense Manufacturing (ADM) so it's possible to scan and shoot with the same unit since you should have a minimal POI shift. It's not an ideal method but with the right setup and practice it is doable.

I use it on one weapon for one special purpose. I have shot hogs at very close range with a suppressed .22 and the AGM TS-25 384. I leave the reticle on while scanning and when I spot any hogs I immediately mount the scope onto my Ruger Precision .22 loaded with subsonics. I made a rail stop but cutting a weaver scope mount so that I can "feel" the proper position for the scope in the dark. I just butt it up against the stop and clip it on.

It takes some practice but I killed 5 hogs at 25 yards one night out of my truck bed so it can be done. You would need to practice mounting the scope in the dark to get familiar with the process. I would prefer this method over trying to swing a rifle around with a scope on it to scan.

As a side note, always be aware of light splash. My hunting is usually very close range and I have been busted numerous times because of the light coming out of the scope. If you drop a scanner on a lanyard or are screwing around behind a scope without a shuttered eyepiece you could light yourself up very easily. I always turn my scanner off before it pulling it away from my eye so if you are going to try this method angle the scope away from your body.



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I'm going to assume that being from Pa, hogs aren't on the menu.

However, something to think about is there's times when calling coyotes that they'll be in your lap so fast, there will be zero time to mount your scanner on the gun to shoot.
 
That is a good idea Gman757. The AD mount on the AGM is very repeatable. By having a "stop" to slide it against in the dark, with practice it could be done pretty quickly. For sure though I have had more than a couple of coyotes that snuck up on me where I would not have had time even for that.

But, like said already. All the options listed above are sub-optimal and have both their drawbacks and strong points. The good news is that if a scope is bought that can be used as a scanner, then all the options can be tried out until a system is found that works. Hopefully it will be a short term fix anyways, and after a while funds can be found for a second optic.
 
Originally Posted By: alf
I'm going to assume that being from Pa, hogs aren't on the menu.

However, something to think about is there's times when calling coyotes that they'll be in your lap so fast, there will be zero time to mount your scanner on the gun to shoot.

True. That's why I am not a proponent of this method but he is trying to get by with one unit so you take your chances or get out the wallet.

FYI. I have had hogs pop out of thick foliage at 10 yards when calling. They will sometimes come in to a call from downwind like coyotes.


 
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Originally Posted By: Gman757Originally Posted By: alf
I'm going to assume that being from Pa, hogs aren't on the menu.

However, something to think about is there's times when calling coyotes that they'll be in your lap so fast, there will be zero time to mount your scanner on the gun to shoot.

True. That's why I am not a proponent of this method but he is trying to get by with one unit so you take your chances or get out the wallet.

He already has the light, so I'm in the get the scanner next camp.....
 
As per normal, I am the odd man out. But I am used to it so it is ok.
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I should say though that part of it is because depending on time of year I could be calling coyotes or stalking large sounders of pigs. And for the type of pig shooting I do I much prefer the thermal on the gun.
 
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As said by DU and me in previous posts. The hybrid system works well BUT you MUST have a scan light on your head turned on and relatively bright.. I ran a night eyes on 80-90% for a few months with a scanner and was almost as successful as with 2 thermals. When I sat in the dark with the scanner then turned the gun light on when I saw them, they would head the other way.
I know some very successful hunters run the scan lights dim but my success expanded greatly when I decided to try it on a brighter setting. (this was first discovered when I just used lights.)
 
I bought thermal scanner first ! Trying to scan with rifle sux ! You would really like nighteyes scan headlamp. I have the dual red/white. Light weight !

jmeddy & I both have experience in Pa.

jmeddy gave you great advice !

I do run all thermal now. Lots of overtime & saving !
 
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Lots of great advice and I am in the scanner first camp also and I'll go a little farther. DON'T SKIMP on your scanner, you spend 98% of your night looking through it so buy a quality 640 unit. If you gotta pinch penny's, do it on the scope. You don't need high resolution to kill coyotes but high resolution absolutely helps you spot them MUCH farther coming in, making PID and working in high humidity.

Another thing is not only will a scanner allow you to scan while on your stand but it also let's you walk in silently while looking, rifle scope can't do this! Another thing is it let's you roll your windows down or get out of your vehicle to see if your spooking anything by pulling in and parking.

Scanners also have various other handy applications like finding deer, roosted turkeys, coons for coonhuters, loose cattle or horses or law enforcement applications and home security.
 
Originally Posted By: wildcat18I'm in the scanner first camp as-well. Lights or DNV could fill the void until enough money is saved for the scope.

I was trying to suggest a unit that can do either or both. Turn off the reticle and it’s a scanner. More bang for your buck and a good way to gain insight to the role of a thermal in both applications.
 


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