Time For a New 6mm Barrel

alf

alf

Well-known member
Time for a new 6mm barrel for the AR, what do I do?

I currently have a Ranier Arms Super Match barrel in 6 ARC that's a ***** hammer. The downside is it's a little heavy and 22". When I bought it this past fall, I had no intention of ever getting a suppressor until I found out I wasn't as incognito at night with the thermal as I thought. I'll have a can by fall.

2nd issue, this barrel loves 87 Bergers at 3000, and works fine on coyotes. But because this is for thermal use, I want to use 55's or 70's for speed, and 70 BT's or BK's didn't work in this 7 twist tube.

So I think I'm going to sell this barrel, and re-barrel with one from DTI. The candidates are.....

Do another 6 ARC in a slow twist, that's hopefully throated correctly. I have the dies, but I can sell them with the barrel, along with the bolt & brass. Why push the shoulder back on Grendel brass & cut capacity.

Regular 6x6.8. I have a Redding FL bushing die & Wilson inline seater on hand. Quick search showed no SPC brass in stock anywhere, and DTI doesn't show this as an option.

6 DTI. Same issue with brass availability, and dies are $200 with a 4 month wait. I currently have a 22 DTI, but I size with a Valkyire die & seat with a 6.8 Wilson die. I could seat with my Wilson, but still need a FL die.

6 WOA. Not in the running. No point in pushing the shoulder back cutting case capacity for light bullet use.

243 LBC. Lapua brass, nuff said. I have 100 new cases here, and I think I have a Redding FL bushing die. Just need to get a Wilson seater. I can keep my bolt and mags. Bolts can be a problem, but it seems to be related to cheap bolts. Unfortunately it doesn't look like they chamber this one.

6 Hagar. the most capacity, and the is the one I'm leaning towards. Brass and dies in stock. The only question is the quality of the Hornady. Seems they have their shlt together now though. Yes? I can use my 22 DTI mags, but need another bolt.

Appears the Hagar has a 2-3 grain H2O advantage over the LBC, which should translate to over a 100 fps gain, but Lapua brass will take more, so it may or may not be a wash with equal barrels.

Thoughts???


 
Well that's a dilemma all right. 87's at 3k is cooking pretty good out of that case. My 20" DPMS 243's barely reach 3100 with 42 gr H4350, I think I'm under max a grain or two but man do they shoot.

I'm sure you've run the numbers, and I wanted the same thing, to shoot 58's specifically. It only gained 1" at 300 in trajectory, and I found a load for 87's first, so I went that way, even on the night gun.

You've done your homework and I can't fault any of your logic. If you can run the Hagar at mag length, I think it should outperform the rest. I've had the 243 lbc and the 6x6.8, and I don't like the 6.8 brass situation either. I broke 2 lbc bolts, yes cheap ones at over 1k round count.

I'd try a Hagar and stock up on brass while available. Or have them build a wssm for you, or find a small frame 243 win, which is what I did, and have none of the bolt or brass issues. It just burns 50% more powder for a small gain is the only real issue there. Well that and much shorter barrel life.
 
I do tend to over analyze most times.....

I'm on my third 6 ARC, and still shooting the original 100 pieces of Lapua brass that I started with, now at 16-17 firings on them. The last loading, 5-6 have finally quit holding primers.

Seems the 87 VLD's are "hard" at 3K. I tend to be a rib shooter, and don't get quite the DRT I'd like. Exits are about nickle/quarter size.

I was shooting milk jugs out to 600 the other day, and the 1st 2-3 I thought I was missing, until I went & checked, & they had just had holes through them. The other side of the spectrum, the 53 Vmaxes at 3500 were spectacular.
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Comparing drops from 100 to 300 with 200 zeroes.....

223 w/ 53 Vmax at 3200, high point is .9 at 150, 6" low at 300

22 DTI w/ 53 Vmax at 3500, high point is .6" at 150, 4.5" low at 300

6 ARC w/ 87 VLD at 3K, high point is 1" at 150, 6" low at 300

6 Hagar w/ 70 BK at 3400, high point is .7" at 150, 5" low at 300

Over all, it's not so much a performance issue I have, it's that the ARC barrel is too long and too heavy, at 22" with a .850" muzzle & .875 gas block.

The WSSM is not in the running at all, as I have a Gibz billet side charge upper, and a Seekins handguard to build around.

So I called DTI yesterday, and ordered a 20" light contour, in a 12" twist. Unfortunately, I have another 6 months to fret the chambering.

They do have 6 DTI dies on the shelf, so that is kinda still in the running, and hopefully brass could show up in the mean time.

However, the Hagar is still in first place. Dies and brass are available now, and it has the most capacity. Win/win/ & win......
 
Yeah that would be a heavy pig lol. Your numbers are spot on what I was finding. My alternate was my 223AI, 53 vmax at 3450 iirc. That thing is a laser, I just don't trust it with a not-so good hit.

And yeah, if the vld is penciling through then that's no good. I wonder how it would shoot the 87 vmax? That bullet is an anchor when it hits a coyote most anywhere.

This summer I may re-visit lighter bullets in the 243. Although I have so many 87's I should just stay there.

Hagar for the win. Do you have to buy 500 brass minimum?
 
So Al I'm kinda going through the same thing and that's the quest for a lazer beam flat, DRT killing machine that is relatively lightweight and easy to handle. I want components that are readily available and factory ammo option would be nice. The 6x6.8 or any of the variations check most of these blocks with the major exception of brass and no factory ammo availability. Its been a challenge with the current shortage going on so after everything is considered I just don't think a person can beat the old-school 243win for what it brings to the table.

I've come to the conclusion that unless a new magic powder is developed, it simple doesn't exist BUT I think the AR10 in 243 is currently as close as possible for it. I have 2 barrels coming so we will see this fall how it works out.

Everything is a trade off, to get speed you need case capacity and barrel length. Barrel length is more weight and more cumbersome. Speed kills better, flatter trajectory but not fur friendly.

After spending years behind many SPR contours in different caliber and lengths its my favorite for a happy medium of weight and rigidity. I am 99% hunting suppressed so I really like 18" barrels BUT you do loose velocity and after running a 22" SPR contour all winter long for night hunting, the extra length is worth it IMO for that application.

One of the biggest things that adds weight to an AR that people don't always consider is the handguard. I'm a quality snob but for coyote hunting I've found that the PSA lightweight tube is awesome and cost effective. Its very slim , super light weight and rigid enough for its purpose. Don't get me wrong, if I was building a fighting rifle, this would definitely not be my choice but for hunting its my first choice when weight is a consideration.

Collapsible stocks also help with weight reduction and I run the Magpul ACS or STR on everything.

One other thing I thought of is the AR10 in 6x47L or the 6creed. Obviously a person would need a custom reamer and slower twist barrel to maximize the light bullets but that could be a fun project.
 
Kino I'd love to try the 6 creed, or even the 22 creed, and even emailed McGowan about turning up a barrel with a G2 extension. I send them the extension (in my case a shot out barrel) and $345 and they'd do it no problems. I think that case is more efficient than the 243 but you can't beat the availability of the old case.

An interesting case I wish was an option would be a BR or Dasher. AR15 Performance makes a 270 MSR on the Dasher case, a simple neck up. If only they'd offer that in the straight Dasher it would be nearly ideal for a max-capacity ar15 platform round that you could build yourself. There is also the MDWS series of rounds.

I look forward to seeing how your 243's turn out.
 
Originally Posted By: 204 ARYeah that would be a heavy pig lol. Your numbers are spot on what I was finding. My alternate was my 223AI, 53 vmax at 3450 iirc. That thing is a laser, I just don't trust it with a not-so good hit.

And yeah, if the vld is penciling through then that's no good. I wonder how it would shoot the 87 vmax? That bullet is an anchor when it hits a coyote most anywhere.

Hagar for the win. Do you have to buy 500 brass minimum?
The 87's are opening up a little, but I expected more. Staying on the shoulder would/should help, but I'm preprogramed to aim behind them. Odd that I've had good luck in the past with 95 & 105 VLD's at not much more speed.

The 87 Vmax is probably softer, but we're still at the long, heavy barrel issue.....

Looks like 500 is the smallest quantity, but I ain't skeered.
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Originally Posted By: 204 ARKino I'd love to try the 6 creed, or even the 22 creed, and even emailed McGowan about turning up a barrel with a G2 extension. I send them the extension (in my case a shot out barrel) and $345 and they'd do it no problems. I think that case is more efficient than the 243 but you can't beat the availability of the old case.

An interesting case I wish was an option would be a BR or Dasher. AR15 Performance makes a 270 MSR on the Dasher case, a simple neck up. If only they'd offer that in the straight Dasher it would be nearly ideal for a max-capacity ar15 platform round that you could build yourself. There is also the MDWS series of rounds.

I look forward to seeing how your 243's turn out.

204, I agree the 47L and Creed cases are more efficient than the old 243 but with zero factory ammo with light bullets I opted for maximum versatility and the old man 243 is still king in that respect. If something ever happened to your handloads, you can get factory ammo to pull through in a pinch.

Now if I was doing a 6 creed or 47L, I would start by making up some dummy rounds with my bullets of choice to run through a magazine and send them to Manson reamers in Michigan to make it specific to the light bullets. Dave Kiff at PTG can do it as well but I've had better luck with Manson. The $200 or so for the reamer would be well spent and maximize accuracy.

Send your reamer to McGowen or comparable Smith and have a nice 10twist blank spun up and your in business!

With the Creedmoor craze in PRS and the shooting sports currently you would definitely have a brass availability advantage over the 47L.
 
I have my own reamers in 22x47, 6x47, and 6.5x47 Lapua, except they are set up for 80, 105, and 130 VLD's.

The 22x47 is a hammer on coyotes, 80's at 3370, but a little tough on fur.

I've built multiple 6x47's, and am a huge fan. Bullets throated correctly, with room to spare in a 700 mag box. 105's at 3030. I have yet to shoot any light bullets through any of them, as the 105's have worked so well. However, none have been at night.

One of them is a switch barrel, with a 2nd barrel in a 14 twist. I have a killer load with 70 BT's at 3525, but it's still a virgin, as I haven't hunted with it yet.

I have gobs of brass, bullets, and powder for any of the Lapua cases, but I have made the executive decision that I'm not building anything on a large frame for any of the bigger cases. I think the Hagar will scratch my itch w/o building another complete gun.
 
Kino,

I have paid attention to the handguard, but I've jumped ship on the lightweights and have went to the Seekins SP3Rv3, which is more of a triangle shape, and different barrel nut system.

Being an old benchrester, I'm a big fan of the flat bottom that rides the bags so well. Mucho better for load work and sighting in the thermal using a good front rest & bag.

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https://seekinsprecision.com/parts-accessories/handguards/sp3rv3-mod-rail-16.html


I do run a Magpul MOE SL butt stock, which only weighs 8 ozs.

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Nice DOPE card on that rifle Al!!

Those Seekins handguard are a tank, anything they build is outstanding quality!
 
2 buddies and I are building 6 Hagars right now. We are building them around the 70 NBT. 24" X-Caliber barrels. Having PTG make a finish reamer since the available reamers have .117" freebore. We don't need nearly that much since we don't have any desire to shoot any heavier than 70-75 grain pills. Hoping to hit 3400 fps with 70 grain NBTs.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kino MNice DOPE card on that rifle Al!!
Thanks Kino, not much room to play on an AR, so you can't get too fancy.

Bolt guns are another story though:

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Originally Posted By: Kino MThose Seekins handguard are a tank, anything they build is outstanding quality!
I don't remember exactly, but it seems like that handguard is only 12 ozs. The extra weight comes from the big triangle nut that screws on the barrel nut, that you bolt the handguard to. At least that extra is more to the middle of the gun, and doesn't skewer the balance up.
 
Originally Posted By: Bowhunt2 buddies and I are building 6 Hagars right now. We are building them around the 70 NBT. 24" X-Caliber barrels. Having PTG make a finish reamer since the available reamers have .117" freebore. We don't need nearly that much since we don't have any desire to shoot any heavier than 70-75 grain pills. Hoping to hit 3400 fps with 70 grain NBTs.

Bolt guns or are the AR15 builds? A bolt gun will get you closer but 3400 may be a little optimistic unless you plan on standing on it fairly hard.
 
Originally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Kino MNice DOPE card on that rifle Al!!
Thanks Kino, not much room to play on an AR, so you can't get too fancy.
You just have to print the chart smaller.
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Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: alfOriginally Posted By: Kino MNice DOPE card on that rifle Al!!
Thanks Kino, not much room to play on an AR, so you can't get too fancy.
You just have to print the chart smaller.
48625728747_8411fb7d61_c.jpg

51123230410_0b92f92a88_c.jpg

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And pack a magnifying glass.....
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Originally Posted By: Bowhunt2 buddies and I are building 6 Hagars right now. We are building them around the 70 NBT. 24" X-Caliber barrels. Having PTG make a finish reamer since the available reamers have .117" freebore. We don't need nearly that much since we don't have any desire to shoot any heavier than 70-75 grain pills. Hoping to hit 3400 fps with 70 grain NBTs.
When I called DTI, I asked what the freebore was on their Hagar reamer. He didn't know right offhand, but was sure it wasn't for the heavyweights. I know my 22 DTI freebore is perfect for 52/53 grain bullets. I can touch the lands with either around 2.260-70 OAL, so I hope their Hagar reamer follows suit.

I'd be curious what you came up with for freebore. I know the 70 BT's are quite a bit longer than the 70 Blitzkings. I have plenty of both, so I'm set on bullets.

Another option is to run the 55 BT lead free for extra speed, and they are about the same length as the 70 BT's from what I've read. I've never had any in hand to measure myself.
 

So I ordered a 20" 12" twist light varmint barrel on 4-16-22, and was told they were 6 months out on delivery.

A couple days later I made the decision to go with the 6 Hagar, and ordered brass & dies from Creedmoor Sports.

Imagine my surprise yesterday when I received an email from DTI that my barrel was in and they wanted confirmation on the 6 Hagar, and it will be done in the next few days.....
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Full steam ahead!!!


 
I'm looking forward to seeing how it does for you. Should be a good combination, I'm also glad to see wait times coming down.
 


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