Tough coyotes or not enough gun?

sleddogg

sleddogg

New member
I never thought a coyote was tough to kill at all. I kept reading about "runners", and "spinning" and many other tales about coyote toughness and "tenacity of life" etc., etc. People carried on like they were shooting cape buffalo for Petes sake /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Then I decided to try a .223 Remingtion. I also tried a .221 Fireball, and a 22-250. And you know what? Now I know why everybody touts the coyote as "tough" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just not enough gun for fast action woods shooting, where your shots may come fast, at odd angles. Waiting for that perfect shot will result in a coyote downwinding you.

The .223 Remington kills fine on chest shots, and I've run the full range of bullets, from 40 grain Vmaxes to 60 grain SP on them. Works fine with a chest shot, but man will they run when drilled anywhere outside that little area. I have left 4 coyotes in the woods this year and at least that many last year never to be found. Maybe its my hunting style, maybe I'm a poor shot :eek: , but if I left one in the forest a year with the .243 Win. it was rare. I believe I've lost more coyotes in 2 years with the little guns, than I've lost in a ton of years with the .243.

For years the .243 has rewarded me with instant bang-flops, and almost no lost coyotes. My shot of choice was high shoulder, and pound them into the ground. If my shot was off, and I hit a little back, dog still down. Dog hit way back in the hips, still down. And I'm not talking dinky dogs here only.

The reason I post this is I was caught up in the little gun craze, and small calibers will work FINE with surgical shot placement. I even killed a coyote in a rimfire only zone with a 22 Mag this year. But I had to pass 3 shots before I had a perfect broadside shot.

I know every gun kills with perfect placement, but thats why I posted this in the Eastern forum. You guys know the thick terrain here, and understand the odd angles, and the need to shoot NOW, or kill very few coyotes.

To all Eastern hunters that can carry CF rounds, I'm curious has to what caliber you shoot and why. Also if you have switched from a large caliber to a .204, 17 Rem, or .223, let me know your results. Not just a coyote or 2, but say guys that have a couple years with a little caliber, and 20 to 30 coyote kills. Are you satisfied with your small caliber, and if so, what gun and bullets are you shooting? Maybe I just haven't hit the magic formula.
 
Sorry Sleddog, there is no magic formula.The tendancy toward smaller rounds bothers me as well .In a place where yoy pups can weigh anywhere between 28 and 40 hog fat pounds the round has to penetrate.That;s why I use a 22-250 and fifty five grain bullets. I shoot either spire points of v-max bullets. I will occasionally try another bullet but these are what I always return to. I like that bang flop performance as well.Jimmie
 
Plumbrich wrote:
Here is the problem I found here were I hunt.Alot of eastern hunters can relate to this Iam sure.You are on stand in the woods a coyote bolts out at 30 to 40yds spins around and bolts out.He has only to run 20 yards to be out of site.I have a full 3 seconds to send the BT bullet right behind his shoulder.Well I have to admitt cant do it all the time maybe one out of ten maybe.So what is one to do shotgun maybe?
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Plumbrich also wrote:
The shotgun is real handy in the east but not for everystand.Sometimes the above happens at 75 or 100yards.What should I do? hunt with the shotgun and not worry about the ones past 50yds.Maybe tote the .22centerfire and only shoot when I have good shot placement?
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Man, I'm glad you hear where I'm coming from, and thats coyote hunting here in a nutshell. Split second shooting though holes from 0 to 100 yards can make for some bad hits. Plumbrich, that 300 Whisper sounds like its real nice /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif If I'm not mistaken, thats spun off a .221 FB correct? I've resisted the AR style gun because prices being so high. But the 300 Whisper does sound like a nice idea, espesially around here.

Jimmie in KY - I think the 55 grain bullets have worked best in the .224 cal. for me also. I liked the 22-250 when I owned one, but in a short barreled calling gun it was LOUD :eek: Thats the reason I got away from it. Every time I shot a coyote my ears rang all day!!
 
Sleddogg, I'm commenting on your question as one who has only shot yotes with a .243 yet now is hunting with a 20" barreled AR-15 in .223. If the coyote Gods smile on me I'll share the results of a 200yd bait pile shot with a 60gr. V-Max this week. What I would like to share now is the premise I work on with respect to deer hunting and carry it over to yote killing as you have raised an excellent question for the board members. My premise is based on foot pounds of energy. The old 30-30 an historic favorite in New England for deer serves as my benchmark. At 100 yards the 170gr. bullet provides 1355 ft.lbs.of energy, having shot many as a youngster with that combo I now use it as my benchmark. When applying it to my .280 Rem.with 140 NBT Remingtons own ballistic tables list the Ft lbs. of energy for this bullet at 500 yds as 1369 which surpasses the 30-30 at 100 yds. This year as a 52 year old I shot deer #50 and swear by my .280 Rem at any range I feel I'm adequately able to place a humane (quick kill) shot.

Lets apply this premise to coyotes and ask your question. What do you all think is an adequate foot pounds of energy required to drop a yote with a well placed shot? Then we can view the ballistic tables and know what range we can shoot with what caliber. I looked at Remingtons tables and compared the .223 55grBT, the .220 Swift 50grPSP, and the .243 75grBT and came up with the following;


Muzzle 100 200 300 400


.223 1209 927 701 522 380

.220 Swift 1586 1107 760 506 325

.243 1897 1564 1282 1044 842


Clearly the .243 kicks ass, yet is it necessary, there is no debating that .223's kill a lot of yotes, just watch a Byron South video. So the question I leave with you all is similiar to Sleddoggs, What is the foot pounds of energy we should look for with respect to yotes.

I'll offer this one thought, I have a friend who drops a dozen yotes a year from his bedroom window. He's got a continuos bait pile going in his field at a measured 350 yds. He uses a .220 Swift.
 
NHyoteSniper - Its not foot pounds of energy I'm getting at. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Its when we make a less than perfect shot, I've found my dogs with the .243. Not so with the .223 Remington. In a perfect world, filled with perfect shots, the .223 is fine. In fact its MORE than fine!!!!!I get very few perfectly posed coyotes in these woods in Ma. I also do VERY little field hunting. I'm talking about the hunting style it takes to kill a lot of coyotes in the East, and the calibers that support our terrain.

I also watched a guy shot a coyote 7 times with a .223 on one of Byron's videos. :eek:

220 Swift and 223 is apples to oranges. Well oranges to tangerines anyway /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I've used 17 Rems to a 243 for the last three years. I still like the 17 Rem and the 6x45 the most.

Some coyotes just have a stong will to get away. I shot one with a 243 that made a golfball size hole through both lungs and it ran about 100 yards. Though I have had a lot of bag flops and big holes with it.
 
Coyotes are tough customers and can handle a missplaced shot and make good their escape unrecovered. I've shot coyotes with everything from the .22LR, various handguns, several different .12 gauge shotgun loads and chokes, and centerfires right up to a heavily loaded .45-70 with 405 grain bullets.

Many things will work, but some border on the "stunt" category. I killed one with a .22LR last year. Called it to 8 steps and placed a .22LR high velocity hollowpoint in the eye as I finally got it stopped. BANG - FLOP! Does the .22LR qualify for a coyote calling caliber? Not in my view. That was more a stunt and I was willing to pass any other than a close range shot opportunity that offered precision placement.

And there in lies the problem as described above. Precison shot placement and perfect angles. My shots at called predators in the heavy timber I hunt are down and dirty, fast and furious. At most a long shot will be 100 yards, normal is around 30-60 yards. The coyote cruises in, hopefully spots the decoy, glides in fairly close and either locks up staring at the decoy, or does the side shuffle to get downwind. If I've done the set-up correctly that side shuffle will swing the coyote closer to me with it's attention diverted to the decoy. Both those are good shots. IF THE COYOTE IS IN THE CLEAR AND PRESENTS A GOOD ANGLE! Now, factor in all the underbrush and trees. Consider that if the coyote spooks he's gone in a flash and shooting running coyotes through all the brush and timber is a tough go. Lot's of deflected and blown-up bullet breaking little limbs and branches, bushes, ect... between you and the running game. I always figure I have to 3-5 seconds to make the shot from the time I first see the approaching coyote. This is if everything is going well. Let one come in and see you, or the wind swirls and he gets the slightest puff of human scent. Less time and certainly moving game. It's happened twice to me this year, once with a coyote, once with a bobcat.

This is why I prefer a heavier caliber and a quick shooting rifle. I need to hit them quickly and HARD. So hard they don't run away. Even if the hit isn't quite picture perfect, it's an anchoring shot that spills them right there. They may spin, bite, yip and snarl, but they aren't running off. The ability to quickly apply another dose of copper jacketed poison is important. I don't make a habit of sloppy shot placement, but that's the reality of hunting quick reacting game in the timber. It happens occasionally, not often, just enough to make a light caliber and slow handling/loading rifle a question mark I don't need. I got all excited when Hevi-Shot made the claims of 75 yard coyote kills for their new "Dead Coyote" shotgun load. If that load could consistently do that, I would not pick up my rifle again. The Benelli M1S90 3" .12 gauge would get all my love. As is the Hevi-Shot doesn't look any better than what I currently use, and at half the price. My loads of Federal Premium no. Four Buck right now give me 50 yard certainty. Sometimes that comes up a little short. That's why my number one calling rifle is the BAR .243. It is a hammer for coyotes in the timber and the best tool I know of for the job. The AR Flattop has taken a distant third backseat to the Benelli and BAR. It can't offer anything the others don't top. As for lighter calibers than the .243, I don't have a problem with good .22 centerfires and the heavier bullets in the caliber - when used with disipline. The .223 just doesn't anchor coyotes like the bigger calibers when hit around the edges. Yea, I know, shot placement. But we've been over that above. If I had the opportunity to shoot across a flat field or prarie, there may not be many excuses for a hit on the edge. I don't get that priveledge, I'm in the trash with them. Thus a heavier tool for me please. Do I need my .45-70 405 grain bullets? Nope, the .243 with the middle weight bullets from 75-87 grains (not the 55 grain flyweight) is just about the upper limit and does just fine. Swat a fly with a hammer you say? HECK YES! Say I!!!
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when i'm hunting woods here in ny, i use a 12ga with oo buck or an open sighted 303 smle that's been sporterized slightly. bang flop! i use the open sights cuz i dont have to worry abt my scope gettin bumped and changing zero. also the enfield has a pretty slick action and i can follow up pretty quick. with win 170g pp, it is usually cal sized hole in and out. just dont hit shoulders :eek: yuck!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Sledd,

I don't think there is a secret formula or anything else. I lost four dogs last year after what I thought were solid, ball 'em up hits. Yet, no dogs! I am going to stick with the .223 and blame me and not the cartridge. I like the .223 for our eastern hunting. I really like the quickness of the T3 I am using, and I am prac-taz-ing more than usual with that rifle. I had bullet phobia so bad last year, I almost ruined myself. I am going to concentrate more on my setup and me than blame or try to find a magic rifle.

I don't think there is an answer for this issue. The proof will be in the pudding at about 150 yards or above 800 pounds of energy. Oh yeah, I do believe in just plain luck, too, because the coyotes I see seldom stand still long enough it seems.
 
Noise level is a problem in some areas.And carbine length barrels can make a loud caliber even louder for the shooter too. If it wasn't for that I would probably switch to a 243 or 6mm.Jimmie
 
I know I'm a better caller and hunter now than I was 25 years ago. I also practice shooting now, so I'm a way better shot. Same guy, same set-ups, same everything except gun. If it was just one year - fine. But I'm two years in a row with lost dogs and runners. I still kill MOST of them, but I've had years with 0 losses with the .243.

Its been mentioned that maybe I've had such good luck killin' dogs with the .243 is just because of confidence in my gun. That may be true /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I kind of think like GC:
The .223 just doesn't anchor coyotes like the bigger calibers when hit around the edges. Yea, I know, shot placement. But we've been over that above. If I had the opportunity to shoot across a flat field or prarie, there may not be many excuses for a hit on the edge. I don't get that priveledge, I'm in the trash with them. Thus a heavier tool for me please.
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Guess my little "small caliber" experiment didn't work out great, but I did learn alot from it. I guess the best thing I learned is if the dogs are fallin', leave well enough alone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But Plumbrich man, you got the gears turning :eek:
 
sleddog,
If you're referring to the AR platform, there are several calibers that IMHO will give a boost in performance over the .223. Several .243/6mm, .264/6.5mm, wildcats and the newest Remington 6.8/.277 should all give better terminal performance than a standard .223. Most of the above are going to require handloading, I don't know if you're into that or not. I am and so that doesn't bother me, if you aren't then that might be a consideration. After much AR time I just find the BAR suits me better personally, though that is subjective.
 
Hey GC! Yup I'm a big reloader, as I got my first reloading set when I was 16 from my uncle. I have been looking at the Remington 6.8/.277 and thinking what a nice Eastern coyote round that would make, AR or bolt gun.

My current .243 is burned its second barrel away, and now pretty much "patterns" bullets at 100 yards. I've just had some shoulder surgery, so I'm out of luck as far as hunting goes for awhile yet anyway. I will try to salvage the last couple weeks of the season though. I will decide on a new barrel, or new gun in the next month or so, as I'd like to finish it by mid-summer to allow for pratice with it.

It won't be 224 cal though, as I guess those smaller rounds just don't suit my hunting style. I don't really care about pelt damage. I really just want the coyote knocked down now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Well I am coming into this discussion a good bit late and quite frankly I dont have a fraction of the experience that most of yall have. I havent gotten a yote yet and in fact I dont even have my rifle yet. I will be getting it here in the next week or two however. I have done a huge amount of research over the last month or two on what gun to go with for hunting in the mountains of TN. My first choice was the .243 mainly because it is the smallest caliber rifle I can deer hunt with here and it is also a reliable caliber for yotes. While asking questions and reading tons of info I came to basically the same conclussion that Sleddog has come to over the years. The .243 is probably one of the best calibers for the eastern mountain regions. As has already been stated most of our shots are fast placed shots. When you dont have time to place a good shot then you have to rely more on take down power of your rifle rather than your shooting ability.

For where I live and hunt there are lots of hills and the trees are very thick so I will probably only have a matter of seconds to place a shot between trees for a kill. I want the gun to take the yote down with the least amount of accuracy from me. This is a requirement not because of my shooting ability but because of the terrain I live in.

I am also buying a 243 for my 10 year old son so that he can hunt with me. It was an easy choice again due to the fact that even with a poorly placed shot the chances of him putting the yote down is very high.

I guess basically what I am getting at is for most hunters their hunting ability and accuracy depends on the confidence they have in their rifle. If they are using a .22 cal center fire or even rimfire and they are not consistantly putting the yotes down then they will start second guessing their shots and will not take shots on alot of animals. Along with lots of range time to gain confidence in your aim a hunter needs to know that his chosen caliber will pick up the slack when his aim takes the dive.
 
Hey Sleddog, What about the good old 30-30? It has plenty of punch for deer out to 150 yards, and since you are a handloader you could use a good sierra round nose bullit for great knock down power and would save the pelt. Sierra makes a 150 grain for the .308/.30-06 that would be awsome out of a 16-18 inch carbine. It is designed for full expansion from guns pushing it at a faster speed. Mount a red dot scope on top and it would be "Death from above" as the paratrooper used to say. A light and quick handeling woods gun. Peditor Xtreme had som articles on loading .30 cal. guns using bulitts designed for deep penitration like trophey boded bear claw, nosler partition, and hornaday interlock. I think these would punch a hole right through and konck the SOB down.
 
Hey GC, why would you not use those 55 gr. BT in your 243? I just found a load that shoots good in my BAR Stalker 243 using the 55 grainers, now your worring me man! I was using the 75 grainers with good results in the past, but thought the lighter faster bullet might save on pelt damage by not exiting at all. I've taken coyotes with several calibers but have lost a few to the 223. Sometimes it's just impossible to keep from hitting a twig, or making a bad shot at a fast moving dog. The 243 is defantly more forgiving in that respect. Very few times do I get to shoot at a coyote or bobcat that's standing broadside and still out in the open. Just seems like they always stop right behind something here in the east, if they stop at all. kyray
 
kyray,
Using the 55 grain bullets in the .243 takes away the advantage of using a bigger cartridge in the first place. Essentially, when using the flyweight bullets you're now back to using a .22-250 or .220 Swift type gun & high velocity bullet combination. And that's OK, and "may" be best for fur. However, IMHO it detracts from the .243's ability to put more metal where it meets flesh. I find favor with the 75-87 grains bullets. They have enough more mass and energy to penetrate on those odd angles, break a bone if needed, and send shards into the vitals. No, they're not the best for fur, though I think I get maybe a 50/50 ratio of salvagable fur to exploded fur. The good fur results from the easy shots at good angles. Then I can place the bullet low through the chest and avoid the shoulder. Bad fur is from the tough shots. As an example I killed a coyote running across my back field this year at a bad angle and long range. The first shot that connected (I missed beforehand and adjusted aim by the mud spray!)hit the pelvic girdle area. That coyote hit the mud from my 75 grain .243 and didn't leave. It was broken down and incapacitated beyond the ability to drag itself off. I don't think a .223 would have cut it for that shot. Fact is, I wouldn't have shot in the first place with a lighter gun & bullet combo. I'm using 75 grain bullets right now, but actually like the 80-87 grain bullets better with the Sierra 85 grain BTHP and 87 grain Hornady V-Max or BTHP as old time favorites.

I equate it to the same thing as taking a raking shot on a large whitetail buck that might weigh oh, say 200 pounds, with a 100 grain .243 or a 180 grain .30-06. I wouldn't take the shot on the trophy buck with a .243 and would have to be content to watch my deer trot off. Put my .30-06 BAR with it's 180 grain handload at 2,734 fps in my hands and I'll have venison. I know that from experience. The bigger bullet with more weight, mass, and energy has a greater sectional density and the "thump" to anchor that deer penetrating it's living parts.

Bullet construction plays into this also. In fact, I'll say this. If I were limited to the 55 grain route with its attendant high velocity, I'd rather have a .22-250 than the .243. This because the .243's 55 grain bullet is a blow up little bomb. Great for broadsides and head on chest shots. Hard angles will tax that little pill IMHO beyond its intended use and design. With the .22 caliber 55 grainer I get a better sectional density and can pick from some tougher slugs for increased penetration. That's why I like the heavier 85 grain .243 bullets. In these you get fast expansion for violent internal damage, yet enough mass to offer more penetration for the odd angle shot.

Can you still loose coyotes shot with the bigger calibers? Yes you can. It happens. But I think it happens a lot less frequently than with smaller guns. Coyotes aren't bullet proof and covered in Kevlar. They are tough little son-of-a-guns however and deserve a measure of respect. If I hunted my areas with a .22 Hornet I'd have to pass some shot opportunities that I will take with a heavier class gun. I don't see much use going upward from the .243/6mm for the close ranges we shoot here in the thick stuff. Maybe if I were shooting 350+ yards in heavy wind a .25-06 could prove worthwhile. But for the close range fast shooting here, personally I really like the .243 as the best tool FOR ME! All this is my opinon and worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
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