Velocities whats the deal

F

FairChase93

Active member
It seems like everyday I read on this forum or another about somebody claiming to be getting what seems to me ridiculous velocities.
Examples
223- 3600
22-250 4200
Various 6mm's pushing over 4000 with 70 or 80 grain bullets
20in barreled AR getting 3400 fps
270 win 130 grn bullets 3400fps
Im just recalling a few I remember off the top of my head. Maybe its just me but it would seem like the internet adds 400 fps on just about every cartridge. Perhaps im just not trying to push my loads hard enough, I don't know.

So whats the deal? Are people getting crazy velocities or are they just padding the stats? Perhaps they are guessing and not actually running anything over a chrono? Maybe I'm the crazy one and just underestimate what various calibers are capable of? Has anyone else noticed a trend of higher and higher velocities being posted all the time?
 
Higher velocities and tighter groups. The internet seems to make us all better people, bigger, faster, stronger.

I never over-top book loads myself and have only gotten higher than listed velocities once. I am guilty of using older data for my Swede when developed in a real rifle chamber rather than a test barrel, but other than that, I treat the reloading manual as gospel. Lyman manuals and Speer manuals seem to use real rifles more often than others, (although test barrels are now the norm everywhere) and their velocities seem to be closer to real conditions.

Using a chrono, I have been surprised at the velocity and consistency of most factory ammo and often humbled by my handloading efforts.
 
I'm sure lots are talking smack, some chronys read vastly different than others. Case in point my Master Chrony reads 3980 for my Tac 20 with 35g Bergers and my V3 reads 3790 on the same load and same day. My WSSM with 58g Vmax is showing over 4000 in a 22" bbl. I know a guy here on the forum that gets 4400 in a Tac 20 with light bullets verified by chrono.
 
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Originally Posted By: FairChase93 So whats the deal? Are people getting crazy velocities or are they just padding the stats? Perhaps they are guessing and not actually running anything over a chrono?

All of the above.

Good policy to take anyone else's velocity - even when you KNOW it's true and accurate - very conservatively. Just because somebody else really is, doesn't mean I really will. And vice versa. That's for the stuff that's true. Nevermind the nonsense. And who knows which is which, on the internet?

- DAA
 
And, there is always "the rest of the story". Which often gets left out. I usually don't bother myself - if someone is curious enough to ask I'll explain, but usually I won't make the effort.

An example, I have a .243AI that gets an honest 4,000 fps with 70 gr. bullets.

Not that hard to understand when you find out it's a 30" barrel with a 13 twist. And that I'm not shy about tipping the powder jug and mashing the pedal.

So, yeah, I get 4K w/70's in mine. Doesn't mean most others can expect the same.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: FairChase93 It seems like everyday I read on this forum or another about somebody claiming to be getting what seems to me ridiculous velocities.
Examples
223- 3600
22-250 4200
Various 6mm's pushing over 4000 with 70 or 80 grain bullets





Ok, let's put things into context:

Remington 700's, 26" 14 twist Hart SS barrel, minimum spec match chamber, zero freebore, bolt bushed by Gre-Tan rifles
26.0g of N-133
50g Nosler ballistic tip
IMI brass
Rem 7 1/2 primer
Bullet touching the lands
3600 fps, tiny, tiny groups less than .300

22/250-Remington Varmint
14 twist
40g Ballistic tip
IMR4895
4200 fps(almost)
Stomp on the gas with the load

244 AI-Win Model 70, Savage 110, Rem 700 L.A.
26" 1-14 twist Shilen barrel 26" long
minimum spec match chamber, zero freebore
70g Nosler fire form at 4050 fps
70g Nosler formed brass load-4150 fps(win 760)
60g Sierra in formed brass-4400 fps
tiny groups with the above load
This same 14 twist rifle shot the 80g Sierra Blitz at 3800 fps with R#19, small groups


The above are loads that I shot day in and day out, do did friends with their rifles set up the same way with my reamers.

If you go and change the twist rate, the amount of freebore, go to a std chamber vs Match chamber you ham string yourself on the loads above. Also, some barrels are slower than others. I changed the twist rate with the 244 AI. One barrel had a 1-10 twist, and the other had a 1-14 twist, the 10 twist rate's accuracy load with the 70g Nosler was 3875 fps while the 14 twist was 4150 fps, both were 26" long, both barrels cut with the same reamer, and the 10 twist was very finicky with the load with a very small window of accuracy.

Nothing and I mean nothing screws up a custom gun like putting a long throat in the chamber where you have very little bullet left in the neck of the case or can not touch the rifling to begin with.

We did not mention the 22/250 AI, one of the very best coyote hunting cartridges ever invented. 24" barrel with a 1-12, match chamber with zero freebore will shoot the 55g noslers at 4050 fps(win 760) into groups so tiny, you will not believe it( you will rarely F.L. size the brass and Never trim the brass).

For guys that really struggle with funds and want a coyote hot rod, the Pawn shop Remington 700's in 270 that are beat to heck that have a wood stock will shoot the 90g Sierra HP at 3500-3600 into very, very tiny groups. Just bed this rifle, freefloat the barrel, do a trigger job, and you will have a tack driving son of a gun!

When you read that guys are getting Star Wars velocity with laser type of accuracy, then there is usually technology behind the barrel, reamer design, gunsmithing techniques that allows for these velocities to be attained.

I like big gunning coyotes, and two calibers come to mind:

257 Weatherby with zero freebore, 100g Nosler ballistic tips at 3850

270 Winchester(Pawn shop Remington 700 with wood stock), 90g Sierra's at 3500-3600 will both dispatch a coyote with no chance of it suffering when pelts are not being saved. I have been shooting the 110g V max at 3375 fps with win 760 with great accuracy, but a number of kill shots have to be taken before I declare that it is as good a load as the 90g Sierra with 3031 or AA2700.

All the above information is NO BS on accuracy of speed nor group size. Very often a guy has to shoot a coyote on the run or at the trot. When you have extreme speeds, the leade that you need is cut way down. Also, when you have the speed, if you hit the coyote in the stomach or behind, usually they are laying right were they were hit, stone dead. With enough speed, the bullet creates an internal shock wave where bone and solid tissue becomes missiles themselves. Bone fragments and stomach contents are things that create HUGE exit wounds. The trick with really fast bullets is that they have to be constructed well enough to take the impact and penetrate when hitting shoulders, ribs, joints or you will have a very inhumane situation on your hands to deal with. Nosler ballistic tips, Sierra lead tips and HP, along with Hornady HP and soft points have served us well over the years.

No one ever shoots this load much anymore, but the Sierra 45g Spt high velocity is one heck of a great killing bullet...very accurate also at screaming velocities out of 223's and 22/250's.

So, after reading this, I hope that you may have a better understanding of how high velocities are attained, if not, send me a PM.

Good luck
 
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For most of us (emphasis on MOST) velocities shouldn't be the main focus anyway. Of course I don't want my .223s to be pushing 40 grain bullets at 1800fps, but all in all if we stay inside the recommended load ranges that are published in the manuals we will have acceptable velocities. Yes, there are some folks like DAA and a few others who have a reason to push the envelope and are concerned about speeds, but for cartridges that most all of us use as hunting tools inside 300-400 yards it really isn't a concern at all. Far more important than peak velocities are velocity deviations and overall accuracy. Speed deviations effect accuracy. And yes, there are some bullets that require certain velocity standards in order to perform adequately. But all in all I can't see (or understand) the uproar about getting an extra 100fps out of a load ... unless it's needed for a certain purpose like long range shooting or some other endeavor.

Like has been said above, just because you read it on the 'net doesn't make it true.
wink.gif
 
I think the only one of my guns that I have performing at a higher level than what is usually reported is my 338 Lapua. I've got it launching 250's at 3100fps, and I don't really think that is mind blowing.

These inflated numbers are probably from people pushing the envelope. I've done it myself. I'd like to see what I could push my AR to.
 
I have a .270 I use for deer and such. It shoots the smallest groups of ANY factory rifle I have ever owned. I have a Chrony but, I will never check it's velocity because I know I will start tinkering with it. I agree with Hidalgo on the accuracy and deviations stuff.
 
Very little gets the juices flowing like talking about the 223 AI on speed.

I have 3 currently, more to come and here is what a guy can realistically expect:

27" 1-12 twist or 23 inch 1-14 twist barrels
match chamber
zero freebore
50g at 3800+ IMI brass, N-133, Rem 7 1/2
55g at 3650+ " N-135, Rem 7 1/2
40g at 4100+ " N133 , Rem 7 1/2
The above are for the 27" barrel

Cut the barrel to 22", change the twist to 8", put a long throat in the chamber, all the velocities are cut dramatically, but the handling characteristics are tremendous.

Now, if you want to shoot the 75g Amax, then this little cartridge will really get them going with very little powder indeed, I am sure that someone will expand on this combo.

There is exactly 100 fps between my 23" barrel and my 27" barrel and the 23" barrel has at least 4000 rounds down the tube.

I had Greg Tannel with Gre-Tan rifles bush my firing pin in the bolt.

I have been a speed demon on cartridges for coyotes since the mid 80's, prior to that I just used the 7 mag with 115g Speer HP.

The vast majority of my shots were inside of 325 yards. When walking out making stands, then the average would be between 80-125 yards.

Most would ask why the need for speed? Well, I don't like spinners, flip floppers, and gimped up runners! When you shoot one in half, he can't run off too good!

I really like knocking the crap out of a coyote when the shots are between 225-350 yards. I hate the idea of a coyote gimping off and dying a slow death, so I spend my money on very good reamers to cut chambers with.

For just walking out making a short range stand, a 223 with a load of 26.5g of 748 with a 55g Winchester at 3050 fps will just knock them flat, DRT. This was my pelt load for years, rarely ever put a hole through a coyote.

People that like building coyote hot rods are just a rare breed. For most of us, it is just a way for us to get to the range and shoot our guns when we are not hunting. Getting practice in and having confidence in your rifle is what range time is all about, not to mention spending time with your hunting partner planning trips working out details on the truck and other equipment.
 
Originally Posted By: BigGrizzNo pressure signs, so no need to measure is there?

Ten million happy reloaders with both their eyes and all their fingers and not one blown up gun who don't know a strain gage from a copper crusher from CUP from CIP from PSI can't possibly be right. There are at least five or six guys out there that told us so.

- DAA
 
Don't get me wrong I feel the need for speed. I am in the process of assembling components for a 6×284 build and I am planning on pushing bullets really fast. I am not doubting what anybody is doing with their custom builds that are designed with velocity in mind. Look on any gun forum and these guys are talking about doing this with factory rifles. AR s seem especially capable of speeds I would never have thought possible, at least on gun forums.

On a side note Ackleyman, was that you that hooked me up with some 52gr Amax awhile back?
 
Originally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: BigGrizzNo pressure signs, so no need to measure is there?

Ten million happy reloaders with both their eyes and all their fingers and not one blown up gun who don't know a strain gage from a copper crusher from CUP from CIP from PSI can't possibly be right. There are at least five or six guys out there that told us so.

- DAA

Now there is a most intelligent response. Amazing.
 
Originally Posted By: NitromanOriginally Posted By: DAAOriginally Posted By: BigGrizzNo pressure signs, so no need to measure is there?

Ten million happy reloaders with both their eyes and all their fingers and not one blown up gun who don't know a strain gage from a copper crusher from CUP from CIP from PSI can't possibly be right. There are at least five or six guys out there that told us so.

- DAA

Now there is a most intelligent response. Amazing.

No, really. You seem to come across as the expert now. I asked a half serious question.

If I'm not picking up any pressure signs and I'm running larger charges and getting higher velocities, then where is the need for measuring pressure? Sure, I may burn a barrel out quicker, but so what? It'll burn out sooner or later.

Where am I going wrong? Should I be alarmed by a load that isn't showing pressure signs? Because there are plenty of combos out there that don't.

Anybody can argue that we have standards and yada yada, but really I could argue their arbitrariness.

Hey, I know! We need CatShooter around to answer this one! Somebody that's really all knowing.
 
I lusted after a 243 ai so I had one built, everyone was saying 105's at 3200 fps with RL 17 was what you should do, some people were even reporting as much 3250 fps. I repeated what the other folks did but there were problems, first RL 17 was extremely erratic for me some days it would be nearly 3300 fps other days it was 100 fps less. So I backed it down and shooting 3/4" groups at 200 yards was the norm. so I thought great I have a load, that is until I found out I was getting over 5" of vertical at 500 yards.

I never see any pressure signs with the brass I use. this is my first ai chamber so I don't know if that is part of it. However the only way I can tell I am out of bounds pressure wise is when I only get 3 loadings before the primer pockets are loose. thats what was happening with the RL 17 load as well, although it took a little to figure that out. I am ok with 5-7 loadings on my brass but not 3!!!! my current load is with h4831sc. its been a great powder that I have tested many times at distance. I am at 1/3 moa of vertical or less at 1000 yards. but its not what you hear most guys funning in this setup. I backed the speed off to about 3115 but even that is actually a pretty warm load for my gun. I bet I can get 6 loadings from my brass at that speed, maybe more. haven't tested that enough yet. bottom line is be careful who tells you what speeds your supposed to get. even mulitiple sources claimed I should be at 3200 fps at least.
 
After reading some of the earlier responses maybe I should have worded my original post different. I'm not asking why you want so much velocity I'm asking why there are so many reports of out of this world velocities that just done match up with what one would expect.
 


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