WARNING: important thermal scope issues

Decoyed

Decoyed

Member
Ok I was watching YouTube and a guy was having issues with an Iray scope. The scope would delay the display image. He was missing animals and found out the delay would cause the missed shot on a moving animal.

Well I bought a bolt last year and was having some issues my self. I had the girlfriend stand in front of the scope and clap her hands together and OMG. There was a delay which was a bit long ,about 3/4 second. I traded places with her a she confirmed the delay

I tried my hogster the same way and the delay wasn’t as long but was there. I know some of my misses were caused by the scope. When you’re steady and are on the animal and it’s a miss it’s probably not human error.

So if you guys are bored try this out and let’s find out which scopes actually work best. 2-18k for a scope and there’s a big delay is unacceptable. Imagine quality doesn’t mean crap if the crosshairs aren’t true.

You won’t notice this delay issue by just sighting in at a range. It comes into play on moving target. I will be calling Iray Monday morning to see if this can be resolved.

Any info helps
 
I don’t have a possible solution to your problem, but just a comment about thermal in general. It’s sad to hear this problem, given that thermal scopes cost so much. Most guys struggle financially to get a scope, that they think will be a good investment for better hunting success, only to learn of issues later. Problems with thermal seem to abound, and yet some guys like myself have had good experiences. Thermal is a game changer “when” it works as it’s supposed to.

To my way of thinking based on observations over a period of time, and maybe I am wrong, but it seems the cheaper thermals in general have less issues than some of the higher priced ones. A good example was the Pulsar Apex vs. the Trail models. Pulsar pushed the more costly Trail models hard and discontinued the Apex, but the Trails were riddled with POI issues while there appeared to be few problems with the Apex. I think Pulsar messed up when they discontinued the Apex.

It seems risky to make a purchase of thermal. The only silver lining in all of this boils down to customer service. If a company has good CS then the gut wrenching frustration can be lessened somewhat, but a season can easily be ruined by a bad scope and all the time it takes to get the issue resolved. Still, I can’t imagine living without thermal after having used it.

Maybe / hopefully things will improve in time. I wish you well with resolving the issue and hope is doesn’t impact your season too much. I know it has to be very frustrating.
 
Killed a few hundred with Trij, NV, Pulsar, FLIR, Armasight, and Iray... Anything electronic has potentially higher issues than that of a mechanical optic. They're definitely not for everyone. I've been super lucky with minimal to zero issues with any of mine.

I would sell it, and get either a light, or a thermal clip on if it's that bad on an issue for you.
 
If any of you do this test and your scope reacts with no delay please post what scope you have. As a whole we could weed out the junk and put others on the right path. Likewise on scopes with bad delays. Skinny I have a clip and it does react perfectly to my eye. It is the hogster c. My hogster 35 scope has a very small delay. Not enough to worry about. Thank you for all the input. It all helps everyone.
 
Can't imagine a delay of this magnitude in a correctly functioning scope. The frame rate on these scopes is fast enough to cause only a very minute delay. Anyway, my Trail 2 XP50 LRF, instantaneous in the clap test. Have a Hogster R35 down in the safe as a back up. Will try it later. Killed 3 last night and the one started moving just as I squeezed but dropped. Haven't killed a running one lately but have made around a dozen I would venture out of the 436 I have logged in, in the last 4 years and plenty from moving slowly to a "jog'.
 
First, I am not saying there isn't an issue with the scope on the YouTube video causing the shooter to miss. However, the Youtube Video test is flawed. I have recorded videos of several thermals and found the same thing. The issue isn't the image in the eyepiece of the scope is delayed. There can be slight variations in the recording (whether faster or slower). The crosshair is on the exact same spot when the shot breaks, but two different devices recording the same event can get slightly out of synch.

Instead of using a phone and recording the same event from two devices do the following. Start recording on a thermal device and wait 5 minutes or however long you want. Then have someone stand in front of you (of course do not have your scope mounted to a weapon). Have them do the Vikings "Skol" chant in front of you. This way you can hear when the hands clap together over their head. Watch through the eyepiece. I re-read Decoyed's post and it sounds like he is doing the test I am recommending. In my opinion, the YouTube video is not a valid test, but Decoyed's should be.

The YouTube video is showing a difference in the recorded result from two different devices. The fact that two recordings are not in-synch doesn't change the accuracy of the image "live" in the eyepiece. I am not saying the out-of-sync recording can't be considered a bug, but a different issue.

I start my recording before I start a coyote stand. There are times it is running for as long as 60 minutes before I turn it off. If there was a delay that kept getting longer, it would be very evident as you move the gun, you would see a lag, and this does not happen at least on the thermals I own. DoubleUp shoots a lot of coyotes on the move. If there was a lag, he would miss most of them. On the following video, there is no way I would kill this coyote if there was a delay in the live image and what I see through the eyepiece.

Also, almost all the hogs the shooter missed on that video were not moving. The shooter could very well have an issue, but in my opinion, he is pointing out a different issue, and it is not the root of his problem.

There are some thermals which have slow refresh rates like 9Hz vs 50 or 60Hz. You will see more lag on devices like 9Hz. Even the Bering Hogster Stimulus compared to for instance a Yoter, you can notice the 30Hz vs 50Hz. At 50Hz, I don't notice it. The 9Hz lag could be enough to miss really fast-moving animals potentially but not like the examples on the YouTube video.

One last comment, keep in mind you are not looking at a "live image" even if it seems to be. What I mean is an electronic (digital) scope has to process the image. There is a lot that happens until the image is presented to your eye. It is not a glass scope. It is amazing to me that thermal scopes typically have very little lag and then we throw recording, and other features in the mix taxing the processor. I am not making excuses, but the fact is a person is seeing a processed digital image. Lots of running hogs and coyotes shot every day/night with electronic devices.
 
I did the "SKOL" test both while not recording and while recording (let it run for 15 minutes) on a Phenom 384 25, Phenom 640, Super Yoter 50, and a Super Hogster A3 today. These are the thermals I have at my residence currently. To my eye, there was no lag. I had my daughter who is a musician, and she claims to have a lot better sense of time and sound. She studied it for a long time, and she thought "maybe" there is the slightest bit of lag. She said if there was any, it was something like "1/32" of a second. I experienced nothing like what Decoyed reported with it being almost 1 second delayed on the iRay.

Again, I am not doing the video test from YouTube because that is not a test that validates the potential issue of lag.
 
....to expand on what Kirch explained.... Hz is "refresh" cycle per SECOND....what you're seeing is the image through the optic to eyepiece being processed at 30, 50 or 60 times a second. At 30Hz there will always be VERY slight fluidity of motion impairment through the process to the eyepiece.
At 50Hz or 60Hz there should be NO real issue from scope image processing to the human eye.

...but when you throw in the on or off board video/audio recording process that many optics have.. you can have a perceived lag issue-but through the recording process.

I have a Trij MKIII 35 set at 60Hz....a Pulsar Trail XP50...and a Pulsar Axion2 XG35...and have no motion lag issues that have ever caught my attention.
 
I want to say I was not on record only looking at real time. I called Iray and they said if it’s delaying in real time there is an issue and they will fix me up and make it right. It could be a dud I got. I truly like the scope and everything works great otherwise.
 
The 2 Iray Rico RL25s I have used are poor. Swapped the 1st out for a new unit and it doesn't hold zero either. The software/algorithm is poor. I am convinced it is the processing delay described by others above.

The flaring issue is very bad too no matter what settings you use. I know it isn't just a bad unit or two for me because fortunately owners on the IRAY facebook group posted similar experiences.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1005615346926548/
Vegard Svihus's posts show several examples of the same thing I experienced with a different IRAY unit. Thor-Magne Klingen and Barış Taşdelen say they have the same issue. Go look at the pics, they clearly show the issues Iray thermal scopes have.

Bottom line, the specs might be comparable to other manufacturers but the IRAY software/algo in the 2 units I had struggled in anything but an open field. A lot of review vids are in open fields and don't show the products used in the woods or anything comparable. Add a tree or two and the IRAY software lights everything up. Not all of us hunt or scout in wide open fields.

The form factor, 18650 batteries, and overall design are very good. Unfortunately the software side is lacking. Iray may be pushing the limits on hardware/cores but I am convinced they are behind on the processing side. At this point, I am extremely disappointed I wasted thousands of dollars on the RL25 as it is essentially unusable anywhere but in wide open fields. Even then it won't hold zero so can only be used to scan.

If IRAY can update their firmware/software to correct the flaring and zero problems then the story changes. We will see but right now I am not optimistic because the initial responses I've seen in the owner's group fail to address the product problems. James Hu (the self-described "Technical Support Engineer of Infiray") replied to those guys with this..."how ahout the price?" when discussing the IRAY's poor performance vs the pulsar. Instead of dealing with the flaring issue the "TECHNICAL SUPPORT ENGINEER" basically said our stuff is cheaper so you get what you pay for. That is the response. You can't make this stuff up. It is right there on the facebook IRAY owners link I provided above.

At this point, I wish somebody had warned me before I wasted my money. If future firmware fixes the IRAY issues I will revise my remarks.

On a side note, the customer service from IRAY USA is excellent! But my understanding is IRAY USA is different than the parent INFIRAY company. IRAY USA was quick to respond and tried to solve the issue with a quick swap. They did the exchange in the short time promised by their warranty. Unfortunately I fear the issues are beyond IRAY USA's ability to solve, but who knows.... maybe they have enough sway to get these issues fixed. One can always hope.
 
PING I agree and appreciate the link. The one gentleman nailed my biggest issue in regards to IRay scopes being over-contrasted.
"how bout the price".. seriously? That response from the support engineer doesn't inspire confidence.
 
Update:

Scope was replaced by Iray. Issue is better but no means fixed. I had such high hopes for this scope. Iray cs was great to deal with but I asked them to make sure the new scope did not delay. They said they’d make sure. Well guess what it delays. Not as bad as the old scope but still does. At this point I feel very cheated out of my money. $3400 seems to be get the money and run. 👎👎👎
 
Interesting. Kind of a let down for you I'm sure Decoyed. I've never shot at a running target very often so havent experienced that issue with my BO Hogster.

I thought if it was 60hz that frame rate is fairly fast per second. Like Korey and others mentioned the 9hz and 30hz units are slower frame rates and you would possibly get a bit of a delay, but 60hz is pretty fast IMO.

The new IRAY 1280's that Skinney has mentioned IMO are a giant leap in technology and twice the frame rate of a 640 scope if I'm understanding it correctly.
 
I would hope it would be better. That’s way out of my price range. Fur prices are down so those coyotes get pretty pricey at that cost. I think I’ll just wait until they stop and take the shot.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top