What thermal features do I need/want?

mr fixit

New member
I've been reading and researching and I'm not really any closer to an answer. I'm wanting to buy a thermal rifle scope. The only one I have looked through is an AGM Rattler 35 that a buddy has. I can spend a bit more than that if I need to. Buddy tells me I need a laser range finder. I'm trying to decide if I do or not.

This will be for an AR style rifle, either small or large frame and may move between them. I might possibly put it on a bolt gun but if I cant or don't I won't feel like i've missed anything. Needs to be rated for .308. Right now most of my hunting at night is within about 100 yards, that is the distance my light will let me shoot. With thermal, I could see shooting farther. I'd say this will be 60% for coyotes and other predators, and 40% for hogs.

A few of my questions:
withing the same model of scope, what will I notice different between a 35mm lens and a 50? for instance in the AGM line is the Adder TS 35-640 significantly better or different than the TS 50-384?
How important is a range finder?
is there anywhere I can go and actually look through several models to make a decision?
 
Mr. Fixit,

I have been doing the research, too. Here are my responses:

You will notice a difference between a 384 vs a 640. Specifically, you will notice improved clarity with the 640 and at longer distances.

I do not care for range fingers. I know some guys who can't shoot without 'em and to make that is giving yourself a handicap.

Scheels in Nebraska has plenty to look at. Does Academy carry thermals?

There is a guy who runs an outfit named Pork Patrol out of Sanger TX. Look him up.

TC
 
Move this thread to the night hunting forum, you will get a LOT more responses. IMO buy a scanner first but if your dead set on a scope the Thermion XG50 at Europtic is the best value going anywhere, several members have them.
 
I bought a thermal scope first then had to get a scanner. Get a good scanner to start with. But if you are dead set on getting a thermal get the best one you can afford. I used a 384 for a couple years but recently moved up to a 640 thermal and the differences are incredible. Identifying and seeing game at much much longer distances. I use the Bering Optics Super Yoter 3-12x50. My scanner is a 2020 model Pulsar XM30. It’s not near as clear but in the hills of Eastern Ohio where I hunt I can scan, see coyotes approaching and get into the weapon sight and verify ID. I’d I hear them howl close I’m in the scope right away anyway. Good luck! We rarely shoot over 200 yards around here so a rangefinder didn’t make much sense to me. YMMV if you hunt the flat lands.
 
I'm usually the odd guy out on these thermal discussions, I probably will be here as well. But it is ok I'm used to it, lol.

I'm not sure how far you are from either Jason or Hans at Outdoor Legacy Gear but they might could get hooked up with you and let you see some stuff in person. They are both great guys and will do you right.

Since you are on a predator calling board, probably the majority of the advice you are going to be given more directly applies to that. I approach it from a different perspective though, one that may be closer to the way you are going to shoot. And that is that I spend as much time pig hunting as I do coyote calling, and usually shoot more pigs than I do coyotes. The two can be very different and finding a good compromise optic between the two is important.

So first off, what really is your budget? The best option, that comes up over and over, is having both a scanner and a scope on the rifle. So now that makes two purchases not one, and that puts you in a whole different spending category. Lots of threads on that, threads you can read on it.

Now lets talk about what you are actually doing with it.

Pigs. Don't need anything fancy here. Any decent 35/384 scope will have you killing pigs out to 250, no problem. Pigs are big, they are hot and easy to see, and due to the way they move usually pretty easy to ID. Unless you really want to show super pretty videos to your friends and post on the internet a 640 is not needed here at all. Only exception would be that if you are covering lots of big fields every night and trying to ID at long range, trying to decide if that is a group of pigs 1/2 mile away you need to stalk, then the 640 and higher magnification is good.

Probably more important on pigs is to not get over-magnified. Get on a big sounder up at 40-50 yards and field of view can become an important issue real quick. Less magnification and wider FOV is better, most generally. Especially if 150-200 is going to be a long shot for you. When pigs start running everywhere at relatively close range things can get crazy. Which if you are hunting them with lights already, you know that. If I was ONLY hunting pigs I would say for me about 2.5x base mag would be pretty good.

Now coyotes. I call in open country. Most of my shots are 75-150 yards but I take enough out at 250+ that I need to have that capability. ID at distance is a thing. But, also, if you really think about it while it is nice to know for sure what one is way out far, it is only once it comes into your shooting distance you really have to know for sure. And usually you can tell by behavior anyways. So, for sure a 640 is nice and helps a lot. But by no means is it necessary.

So what do I shoot? I shoot primarily a Thermion XQ-50 which is a 384 scope. Base mag is 3.5 which is a little on the high side for close up pigs. But I have shot it enough and am comfortable enough with it, that does not bother me. Generally with that scope I will not stalk up any closer than about 50 yards on pigs. I have at times though. We stalked a group in a shelterbelt one night in the trees and weeds, ended up at 26 yards before we started shooting because we had to. That was a little close for 3.5x, but it worked out. For coyotes though the 3.5 base mag is great. I turn on PIP and leave it on, so I have either 3.5x or 7x on my screen all the time without swapping around. That works perfect for me, I love it.

My other scope is a AGM TS35-384 Varmint LRF. Base mag is 3x. Better for pigs, nearly perfect for that, and still plenty good enough on coyotes. It has the LRF, but really I don't use it much. My main reason for going with that model was not the LRF, but the fact it uses rechargeable 18650 batteries instead of CR123's, which I hate, and the 3x base mag. This is the optic that most of the time I have it popped off of a gun and am just carrying it to use it as a handheld scanner. Is that optimal? Probably not. But it is fairly small and light, has a good return to zero American Defense mount, and since I am using it as a scanner having a good battery system is important. Plus when I need it for a second gun I have that option whereas with a dedicated scanner I don't. I also use this scope on my 300 HAMR when for sure I am doing crop damage control on pigs. That HAMR is pretty light, and so is the AGM. When you are carrying it a billion steps in sandy plowed ground and are old like me weight matters. And it is a great little scope for hammering pigs.

Some folks would say the best thing for my situation would be a 640 core scope to get the wide FOV down low, and then be able to turn it up and still get the resolution at higher magnification for the distance shots. Probably they are right. But that would have blown my budget and I would have ended up with jut one optic, not two. And I'll say this. I have a Thermion XQ50 (384 core) with 3.5 base mag. A friend of mine has a Thermion XP50 (640 core) with 2x base mag. His looks better at the 2x base mag than mine does at 3.5x. But zoom his to 4x and to my eyes I can't tell much difference between mine and his. Maybe there is and my eyes are bad enough I can't see it. But for sure it isn't night and day.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kino MMove this thread to the night hunting forum, you will get a LOT more responses. IMO buy a scanner first but if your dead set on a scope the Thermion XG50 at Europtic is the best value going anywhere, several members have them.

This^

Since you specifically asked about LRF.
I have two thermal scopes. A Trail 2 XQ50 with LRF and the above mentioned Thermion XG50 (I couldn't pass up a scope for $3500 that I was seriously considering when it was $6000...yes six thousand). Both are set to manual nuc. Oddly the XG requires more nucing than the Trail 2 but the Thermion has been a great scope with no POI issues. ETA-To be fair to the Trail 2, the POI issues went away when I stopped popping the scope on and off.

I thought I needed LRF because I'd originally planned to bounce the scope between platforms and thought it'd spend time on an airgun. If you're hunting with a buddy that has LRF, it is redundant. On a flat shooting powderburner an LRF just adds weight and cost for minimal upside.
 
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Oh, I didn't answer one of your questions. Generally going from a 35 to a 50 think about it as a base mag thing. Resolution is the same, just the 35 will be lower base mag and wider FOV, the 50 will be higher base mag and narrower FOV.
 
I called Outdoor Legacy and Hans called me back. We had a good conversation. Basically he thought I would be happy with the Adder. I think for me, and Hans agreed with how and where I hunt, a LRF is in the might be nice but not really needed category.

I've pretty much decided to get the Adder 35-640. It will mean saving a couple more weeks before I purchase but I think I will be very happy.
 
I have a friend who is a dealer for AGM, he sells a lot of the Adders. He had me demo the TS50-384 for a month or two, I liked it quite a bit. It was a 4x base mag which I thought was a bit much for me personally. The 640 should be a lower base mag and work real good for you. Hans is east Tx as well, does lots of both pigs and coyotes, so should have a pretty good idea of what you need in a thermal. If you watch Infidel762's videos on here he shoots an Adder. Pretty sure his is a TS35-384.

Once you get the scope, then you can start saving up for a scanner, lol.
 
I just got into night hunting last December so I don’t have a lot of experience with different optics, but since you are getting an adder I will give my opinion on mine. I did buy an Adder ts35-384 not 640. I would say I have just gotten through the break in period to give an opinion on it. In the past 4 months it has seen hard use, it is scratched up and I broke off the front lenses cover, but other than that it has held up well. AGM did send me a new lense cover free of charge. It spends most of the time in the back seat of my truck bouncing around and it holds zero. That was my main concern, color pallets, wifi and and fancy bells and whistles are secondary to the optic holding zero. I leave it on black hot and use the same reticle to develop consistency.

I am scanning with a pulsar hellion qx30 and the Adder detects and identifies things better than the helion. It sees coyotes well before I see them in the scanner. I know this cause I started recording my stands from the beginning, instead of waiting to start recording when I see a coyote. I point the rifle where I think they are going to come from and I start recording. I go back and watch the video and I can clearly see them coming in well before I ever saw them in the scanner and I also have recordings of coyotes I never saw through the scanner.

So far I have called in and killed over 250 with it, the things I wish I had most using this scope is not additional clarity, it is a lower base mag for getting on moving coyotes at close range and a LRF. Sure recording videos is nice and I would like additional clarity but my main use for it is to kill. I have no problem identifying and seeing coyotes out further than I can shoot. Without an LRF I don’t zoom in on coyotes, I just leave it on the low setting and use PIP when they are standing still at a distance to aim. I am trying to learn to gauge range by their size in the view finder. When I upgrade I think I am going IRay with a low base mag and LRF. I am still keeping my Adder as a back-up and spare, its resale value would be less since it is all scratched up but I know it holds zero and have confidence killing with it.

Its battery life is good, I hunt with it all night and I have never came close to running out or needing to use the additional battery it holds. The menu wheel is sensitive and easily engaged, I learned to just carry it on sleep mode. The first night I hunted with it I was leaving it on to test battery life, I missed a couple coyotes before I realized it got set to a different profile while carrying it over my shoulder, but once you get used to it that is an easy problem to avoid.
 


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