Who uses tactical scopes ?

C

cold finger

New member
I own a bunch of rifles from 22lr up to a 300win. mag.. Most of them have scopes ,but none of my scopes are of the tactical type.I have several scopes with Ballistic reticles and these seem most practical for hunting purposes. Am I missing out? What are the advantages of tactical scopes. I will be upgrading scopes on a couple of rifles and just looking for opinions and advice. Thanks for any input.
 
By "tactical" are you referring to adjustable, uncapped turrets?

If that's what you mean, then I would think the advantages are obvious...but if not, let me try and explain a little.

There is no way in the world that a BDC reticle of any kind, will be as accurate as an optic that can be dialed to precise elevation in accordance with ACTUAL ballistic drop in changing conditions as confirmed via testing.
Some reticles allow for hold over in varying degrees of MOA or MIL, which are good for holds on the fly, as long as you're willing to learn what your ACTUAL ballistics are for your rifle, load and atmosphere.

For a lot of hunters, they have neither the intention or determination to learn how to shoot with precision, (which is different than accuracy)

If you choose to hunt with accuracy at close to medium range, then what you have is probably just fine.
If you choose to hunt with PRECISION at medium to long ranges, then you need to dedicate your craft to learning how to operate with precision.

It's like comparing a scalpel to a hunting knife. They both cut, and they both cut well...but they are far from the same thing.
 
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If you are doing what I call 'general hunting', most of your bullet drop reticles will, to varying degrees, suffice for the purpose..However, if you are interested in 'precision' shooting at almost any range, then your minute adjustments, based on specific distances and conditions require turning the turrets and some BDC reticles just don't offer the ability to achieve that degree of precision..

For instance, a 50 yard .22lr group match involves targets with 'bulls' and circles that are .35" in diameter/.25" spacing..

and I use a fine target dot optic for shooting them...you can see in the one above what a slight breeze (or lack of) will do...I wouldn't feel confident depending on a bunch of circles or mil dots to produce that degree of accuracy..
 
So are y'all saying if a person wants to shoot as precise as possible target turrets and a duplex reticle is ideal? You dont need a reticle that looks like a Christmas tree?
 
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Originally Posted By: rookie7So are y'all saying if a person wants to shoot as precise as possible target turrets and a duplex reticle is ideal? You dont need a reticle that looks like a Christmas tree?

If your not going to be ranging with it or using it for holdover... No you don't need it. All you need is a scope with turrets and a regular duplex reticle. Its more old school than the latest and greatest milrad FFP scopes but if your range is known its just as precise.
 
Note: this post is not directed to anyone in particular but to everyone in this thread. Please don't take any offense as none is intended. My only concern is to help us use the proper terms so that we can talk to each other and understand what everyone is trying to say. I'm only talking in here about the difference between accuracy and precision. There is a difference in these two words that many either don't understand or get confused and use the terms interchangeable which confuses people.

Precision is not the same as accurate. You can be precise and not accurate. If you hit the same spot over and over again then you are precise. But that spot may not be where you are aiming at. Then you are precise but inaccurate. Say you aim at the bulls eye of the target and keep hitting about 6" high with every shot. Each shot is touching the others but still 6" higher than what you aimed at. You are then Precise but Inaccurate

Now if you shoot at the bulls eye and miss with every shot and all the shots are all over the paper in different places then it's said that you are both inaccurate and imprecise.

If you hit the bulls eye with every shot you are then accurate and if all the bullet holes are close together inside the bulls eye you are accurate and precise.

Precision is not the same thing as accurate.

If you are accurate then you are hitting where you are aiming.

If you are not hitting the point where you are aiming then you are not accurate.

It does not matter if you are shooting at a target 10 yards away or 1 mile away. The definition of precision and accuracy does not change.

Too many people use the word Precision inaccurately.
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If you are shooting with precision that means that your groups or tight. But that does not mean that they are accurate. You can have all your shots miss the bulls eye or the target and all land in the same spot where you were not aiming at.

Now if you are shooting at a target and have to adjust the dials on the scope or use the mil dots on a scope reticle to get hits on a target that's far away that's a different topic all together. How you get the rifle to shoot accurately and hit the target is a different discussion. But you are not trying to be precise. You are trying to be Accurate and Precise.

Precision = repeatability. Accuracy =hitting what you are aiming at.

I think a lot of people use the term precision in different ways. I like to add one more term. Resolution. The ability to resolve an image depends on the magnification and the quality of the glass among other things.

I think when people talk about precision shooting they are trying to say that they want both precision and accuracy.

Sorry that I added those to Old Turtle's post as I was actually trying to post this in response to another poster. I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining that at the front of this post.

I come from a QA back ground which is why I wanted to add this about the terms precision and accuracy. I guess I should have made this post a new thread.



 
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Coyotehunter,,,This is certainly not an argument and your definitions are spot on...If you care to go back and read my initial post...Quote: a 50 yard .22lr group match, the purpose of the match was 'smallest group' rather than individual aggregate score...You still need to focus on a specific aiming point with a high degree of 'precision' and that involves a finer reticle than usually found on BDC optics...
 
I see from your previous post that you were talking about being able to repeat the hits in the bulls eye. So you were looking at a reticle and scope adjustment knob that allowed you to be accurate and precise at different ranges? That's How I read it the second time around. By precision you mean getting the scope to move the point of impact up or down in a repeatable way.

Most of my rifle scopes do that. I have the Nikon M223 600 BDC 4x16x42 and the Burris Full Field II 3x9x40 scope. Both of these scopes use 1/4 MOA Minute of Angle Turrets to adjust the vertical and horizontal reticle's to move the POI up or down or left and right.

A tactical scope could also use Milliradian dots on the horizontal and vertical Cross hairs. These scope reticles can be use to determine the range to the target if you know the size of the target. Where MilliRadian is 1/1000 of a radian arc on a circle. Actually it's a measurement of angle 1/1000th of a radian.

I see what you are saying now. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.


Originally Posted By: OldTurtleCoyotehunter,,,This is certainly not an argument and your definitions are spot on...If you care to go back and read my initial post...Quote: a 50 yard .22lr group match, the purpose of the match was 'smallest group' rather than individual aggregate score...You still need to focus on a specific aiming point with a high degree of 'precision' and that involves a finer reticle than usually found on BDC optics...
 
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OldTurtle said:
If you are doing what I call 'general hunting', most of your bullet drop reticles will, to varying degrees, suffice for the purpose..However, if you are interested in 'precision' shooting at almost any range, then your minute adjustments, based on specific distances and conditions require turning the turrets and some BDC reticles just don't offer the ability to achieve that degree of precision..

Do you have to turn the turrents? Can't we just use the Mil dots to adjust the aim for various ranges and winds? Turning the turrents move the center of the reticle away from where the rifle is zeroed. While this can be a precise (very repeatable way) to adjust for various changes in range to the target and consistently put the bullet on distant targets you can also leave the turrent alone and just use a different point along the vertical reticle (Mil dos) to adjust for bullet drop at various ranges beyond the initial zero point. And with winds it's faster to just aim to the left for a wind that blows from left to right to compensate for the wind. It's faster to use the mil dot to change the point of aim than to tweak the turrets. Especially when the wind is changing velocity. At least that what I learned to day from a video that I saw. I posted this video today on this Optic Forum. It's a new post about using Mil Dots.

I did some research this afternoon after reading the post about tactical scopes. I could not remember some of the information I had learned before and wanted to refresh myself on that topic. I found these vidoes on U tube and thought that they might be helpful for those looking at various rifle scopes in this forum.

Click to expand...
 
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Are you talking about the thickness of the lines on the reticles? Thinner reticles being better than a thicker line to get better precision? That makes good sense.

How can we know the thickness of the reticles on the different type of rifle scopes before buying them? That's something similar to what I was reading about the Red Dot Optics. Some red dots are bigger than others. Some cover about 2 to 3 MOS at 100 yards or 2" or 3" of the target is covered at 100 yards with some red dots. The EOTECH's use a 1 MOA do and some are even smaller at 1/2 MOA or 1/2" at 100 yards. Approximately.

Originally Posted By: OldTurtleCoyotehunter,,,This is certainly not an argument and your definitions are spot on...If you care to go back and read my initial post...Quote: a 50 yard .22lr group match, the purpose of the match was 'smallest group' rather than individual aggregate score...You still need to focus on a specific aiming point with a high degree of 'precision' and that involves a finer reticle than usually found on BDC optics...
 
Originally Posted By: Coyotehunter_Are you talking about the thickness of the lines on the reticles? Thinner reticles being better than a thicker line to get better precision? That makes good sense.

How can we know the thickness of the reticles on the different type of rifle scopes before buying them?

Most manufacturers will have those reticle sub tension measurements on their website. They will also include them with the paperwork in the box, i.e the owners manual.
 
This video explains how to use a Mil Dot Rifle Scope and estimate range to the target. This guy in the video is good.

 
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OP.
A lot of people have the "tactile' IE: turret adjustable scopes with no ideal of how to use them. Or have them to just be cool and are afraid to use them. Mil dots are handy for ranging if yo know how to use them correctly and can do the math in a timely manner, either in your head or with a mil dot master. But the real key to using them is to know the height of your target in meters.

For most a decent laser range finder and an elevation adjustable turret marked for your particular load is the easiest and best option. Second would be the same as above but in moa turret with a cheat sheet taped to the but stock.

A lot of people get buy with just a BDC reticle and good range estimating skills. In the field it is great to be very precise, but often is not needed or situation will not allow it.
 
For some reason this web site won't accept my cookies. I can not stay logged in here. All the other web site forums are working except for this one. I log in and after I start to check out a different thread or open another tab on my browser I find that I'm no longer logged in here. Therefore I have to go log in again and lose my place. Very frustrating to have this happen all the time.

I even found the place on MY STUFF where I could expire the cookies on this web site. I use IE's latest browser set to it's default settings and use the Tools Menu Item "Delete Browser History" and clear out the old passwords and cookies there. And then I some times use C Cleaner to clear out the cookies and temp files on my computer.

I would think that if my computer were at fault that it would do the same thing on other web site forums that I frequent but that's not the case.

I would not complain unless this was such a big problem. I've had to re log in about 30 times today and that's not fun.

I should be able to log in and hit the F5 key on my computer and refresh the page without losing my log in information. But that's not the case here.
 
I'm thinking that if you want to use a tactical MIL DOT reticle scope to figure distance to the target that you may want to buy a First Focal Plane type scope. I'm not sure what type of scopes are first focal plane types though. Maybe someone else can jump in here and help out more.

Both of my scopes use the BDC type reticles so I was not familiar with MOA or Mil Dots used on the tactical type scopes.

I posted some links to some videos that explained how to use MOA and Mil Dots to shoot long distances. I subscribed to that video's google thing and watched a few more of their videos today. But trying to remember all of that if you don't use it all the time is difficult.




Originally Posted By: cold fingerI own a bunch of rifles from 22lr up to a 300win. mag.. Most of them have scopes ,but none of my scopes are of the tactical type.I have several scopes with Ballistic reticles and these seem most practical for hunting purposes. Am I missing out? What are the advantages of tactical scopes. I will be upgrading scopes on a couple of rifles and just looking for opinions and advice. Thanks for any input.
 
I use a MOA reticle and matching target turret scope for my longer range groundhog hunting. It has fine lines as to not obstruct the target and is SFP. I range with a LRF mostly and have a pre-made dope chart as well as a ballistic app. I mostly use the reticle for shot correction and for wind holds. I almost always dial my elevations. Sometimes at longer distances a missed shot on a groundhog won't spook them too bad and I get a quick follow up opportunity. Knowing where my previous shot landed, I can use the reticle to make a quick correction and send another shot. If my LRF battery dies or it fails for some reason, I can range with the reticle at max power, which is mostly what I shoot at for distances that need much elevation any ways.

For predator calling and deer hunting, I generally don't shoot far enough that I can't hold on fur with most any of my rifles.
 
just to go in a slightly different direction.... a true "tactical" scope is a FFP scope with dots or hashes as a true tactical situation requires ranging with a reticle and not a range finder. I know I'm splitting hairs here but a target scope and tactical scope can be specialized to have differences. having exposed turrets doesn't qualify a scope as a tactical scope.

OP- using those standards I would say no, I don't use tactical scopes but I do use long range target scopes with exposed turrets.

to go along with the other guys I'd differentiate a tactical from a target scope by saying that tactical scopes are required to be accurate not necessarily precise. think war movies, they don't care about hitting someones pupil they just want to make a shot that suffices.


AND coyotehunter- what would we do without all of your internet acquired knowledge? LOL!
 


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