Rifle Setup?

MACK133

New member
Hi! this is my first post on the forum and I want to start by asking a question. Two nights ago I went night hunting for the first time (ended up getting an opossum at 9 paces) by simply walking through the woods shining a spotlight in trees and finally trying to squeak up some coyotes. I was using my brother's 20 gauge, which was less than ideal (heavy, innaccurate, etc). I only used it because I don't have a predator gun of my own.

In bed that night, dreams of .223's and .20's and .22-250's filled my head. After doing some research, I looked at all manners of calibers, actions, loads, fur damage, targets, and guns. Eventually, I settled on a Remington 700 in .17 FB. Then, on a custom built .17 Predator. Then a custom .22-250. Finally, someone mentioned bringing a 12 gauge and a long-range caliber. "Good idea!", I thought. But I didn't feel like lugging two guns around, and a friend isn't always an option.

Because of this, I looked at combo guns and drillings. I have since settled on a (I say that alot LOL!) Baikal MP94 in 12 Gauge/.223 Rem. I've read up on it and discovered it has an odd scope mount and can be hard to scope, not to mention the scope shattering recoil of a 12 gauge.

Anyways, I want to know how people have their rifle/shotgun combos setup specifically for night hunting coyotes, foxes, and bobcats (as well as the curious raccoon and opossum that decides to stare at me for too long from across the field).

I live in PA so shots won't be longer than 100 yards, with most under 50 yards. I will be calling or sitting over bait anywhere from 10:00PM to 3:00AM. Remember, no hunting from trucks so texas-style pickup stands aren't allowed.

What I am asking is how are your guns setup specifically for night hunting predators (model, caliber, scope, thermal, NV, suppressor, flashlight, laser, stock, trigger, etc). Include all specs, and most important, pics!
 
MACK133,

I have the Baikal MP94 in 12 Gauge/.223 Rem also. I tried using my favorite 44mm night scope. I sighted it in for the rifle at 100 yards. I then wanted to see how the 12 gage patterned. I quickly learned after slicing open my eyebrow that you need a shotgun scope. I then purchased the best shotgun scope I could afford but unfortunately I could not see past 75 yards at night due to the small objective and poor light gathering ability. It cost me a coyote. It has been in my gun safe for the past 5 years only to be used for fall turkey season. It works fine for a daylight gun but not so good for a night gun. Just my opinion.

My go to gun now is the .17 Hornet. It is a killing machine causing little fur damage.
 
I have done the 223's, the combo gun route, and now going the 17cal avenue. Welcome to the aggravating search for the perfect all species predator gun.

I find 223's too harsh for grey fox if using most 22cal frangible bullets and not fast expanding enough with the tougher bullets. It is occasionally alright for reds and seems better suited to coyotes.

The combo guns come with their own set of problems. Mine, the Baikal 12ga/223rem has a limited number of after market chokes and has a weird sized European style dovetail rail. I was able to get Millet Steel rings torqued down hard enough to hold, but the trajectory of the rifle barrel is hard to get use to at 223 speeds. I found that I had a huge climb in my POI from a 50yd zero and 100yds impact. I had to compromise and sight in at 75yds so that I was low at 50yds and high at 100yds giving the best coverage of the ranges I shoot due to the scope being so far above bore. The gun is very heavy and kicks like a mule. Although my rifle is accurate on my combo, the trigger is not "match grade". My opinion is that you get an okay shotgun and an okay rifle without getting the best of either or both. The shotgun trigger feels a little far forward to me. Some complain about getting triggers confused, I've yet to experience this. It does have a place in my arsenal, but I'm not very limited in what I can have, so it gets to stay.

17calibers are different breed. They become marginal in a hurry due to a lack of energy once you tack on distance and poor shot placement. They are also better suited to handloaders. I find shot placement a lot more crucial and it seems to be more of a rifleman's caliber than anything and that seems to fit the bill for me. They are great at minimizing hide damage when you choose the right 17cal with the right bullet and speed. I think a down loaded 17rem or a standard load out of a 17FB/17MKIV would be about ideal in the east at our typical distances on the 5 predators we encounter (red fox, grey fox, coon, coyote, bobcat). Hopefully further testing will substantiate this
grin.gif
.

Even though I prefer a rifle, I would say start with a good 12ga pump with screw in chokes for "the one" gun. Whatever works good for a turkey gun will make a decent predator gun. Test your loads and chokes and start off with that. Fur damage will be minimal, weight won't be bad, and you will likely have opportunities under 50yds and they'll likely be running. Get some furs under your belt and add the rifle later. Shotgun ammo is readily available unlike most rifle ammo and you can hunt everything from doves and geese to predators and deer and turkeys with a good 12ga
wink.gif
.

Plus Joe Biden will let you keep your shotgun
laugh.gif
 
So I should rethink the Baikal? The only problem is two guns is not an option right now. I'd imagine the shotgun wouldn't be good out to 150 yards, especially on woodchucks and the .223 would tear up coons/cats/fox under 100 yards. So a combo gun is almost a neccessity.

Surely there must be SOME shotgun scope out there that gathers good light, Night Eyes. I'd be willing to spend twice the $ on optics than the gun if neccessary. Wouldn't an illuminated shotgun scope be good, especially if I had a red light attached to the gun or even a NV Shotgun scope or FLIR-type scanner.

Is a combo gun out of the question? I have no experience but the Baikal seems to have a good rep. I can't afford two seperate guns and I doubt a .30-06 would be especially good for my situation. If the Baikal is the problem, rather than the combo concept, should I consider a Blaser or Savage? I really like the Baikal.

Brain storm! Anybody know the boltface of the .17 Hornet? Could I just have the .223 rebarrled to .17 Hornet and throw a 20 Gauge adaptor in the 12 Gauge barrel?
 
Last edited:
I have the Bakail and have killed predators from east to west and north to south with it. Awesome gun, if you like to have a shotgun and rifle on the same stand without having to carry two. I even managed to kill a triple with it and doubles several times.

Just like Corey said, they are heavy and the shotgun kicks like a mule. I headed out to call some bears a few seasons ago and decided to try a slug in that gun. Bad mistake, it kicked so hard it felt like it broke my nose when I shot.

This is now my night gun.
 
Mack, seems to me like you need to use a shotgun right now. You said most of your shots will be under 50 yds. so the shotgun will cover that nicely. It is easy to be excited about something and jump in and buy a bunch of stuff that you really don't need. Most of us have probably done that to some degree.

Right now you just need to find out if this is something that you are really going to do and stick with or will you go a few times and become disinterested. Finding someone to hunt with you who has a rifle will let you cover long and short. Boondocks and these other PA guys can help you more since they hunt there, but I'm thinking foxes are a lot more likely to be in your bag than coyotes. Welcome to the forum and the great sport of predator hunting.
 
I'm not a fan of over under guns. Heavy, inaccurate and basically one shot if out of shotgun range. I hunt at night and almost always grab a rifle, but thats me. To shine a light you need an opening, like fields, sand pits, frozen ponds with no camps, power lines etc. a lot of times the animal comes to the wood line and stops there, its nice to have a rifle in them cases. if the opening is small or a semi wooded lot or something, i grab the shotty. You do plan on calling right? You mention walking around and shining up trees, thats not going to be too productive if you want to kill fox and coyote. Calling and shining in the woods doesn't work very well with the light bouncing off trees. Unless you have moonlight and then a light may not be needed at all. If I was to only get one gun, it would be a rifle. You say your gonna sit over bait? How far back from the bait will you sit? Unless your in a tree stand close to the bait, then you would almost have to be in rifle range, no?

You asked for setups etc. These are my night guns.

Below is my shotgun with a light attached to the barrel. The rifle is a .22 magnum with a kill light attached to the scope. the monopod has a predator light attached to it. makes for easy scanning and frees up you hand for ather things.


This is my M4 .223 with the kill light attached to a rail. No an AR is not needed and I dont think you can hunt with those anyway, but a bolt action is just fine.
 
Last edited:
I also highly recommend you look up Andrew Lewand on Amazon and buy a couple of his books. I have the coyote and red fox books and they are fantastic for beginers and experienced hunters. Andrew is a member here and goes by bhw. Do a search here on him or just go the the Hunting in the East board and you can see for yourself how sucsessful he is. He uses a .223 rifle a lot.
 
Didn't see woodchucks in your original post, thought this was for a predator gun. Some folks love combo guns in general and the Baikal is tough as nails and reliable as far as combo's go and is priced well. They are not for everyone, just like AR's aren't for everyone or rifles in general. Just pointing out some of the issues I found with each of the options you mentioned. I've still got my combo gun, It wore a Nikon Buckmasters 4x-12x-50mm scope early on and it never cracked my face. I had it set up with a generous eye relief and never shot anything heavier than #4 buck out of it. Plus I tend to absorb a little recoil at 225lbs
blush.gif
. I mostly shot the rifle barrel on it though. Mine now wears a Bushnell 1.5-4.5x scope that I bought used and seems to hold zero through the shotgun blast. I gave it a good run trying to make it work. In the end, it is worth it for me to keep as a spare, but not the first thing I grab going out the door. All your options will kill animals, some will do it better than others. Some will have you sewing hides more than hunting if you save fur. I still have all 3 of my 223's for now, but they rarely leave home anymore either. The combo's will kill groundhogs, but I wouldn't want to lug it around as a groundhog gun. This one below was 120yds +/- using 40gr. V-max. Not a fur friendly exit on a very tough hide. Also not an easy gun to shoot prone for varminting. Luckily he was shot off the shooting sticks.
PICT0082.JPG

Last fox shot with the combo at about 80yds at night. 50gr. V-max left several exits including one 2"x4" out through the guts with a chest entry. Most of the back side is torn open, took a lot of sewing
mad.gif
.
PICT0300.JPG

Bullet POI difference between 50yds and 100yds. Both using the same hold between the circles. Sighted in at 50yds originally. Accuracy wasn't a problem as much as having to learn the crazy trajectory.
Baikal100ydsgroup11-20-11.jpg

The only turkey I've shot at with it.
May%202011%20Gobbler.JPG

More foxes with poor results. Don't let the nice pictures fool you. I hide the gore in my pictures to make them postable. One had a pass through and ran 75yds and died in the mouth of the den due to a 30gr. bullet that was too hard. The other another blowout with 45gr. softpoints.
PICT0001.JPG

PICT0020.JPG


I'd forget FLiR scanners, night vision, customizing combo guns and anything that doesn't come off the rack and shoot factory ammo at first. You can buy a heck of a rifle and scope for what a cheap FLiR runs and welding a pencil barrel onto a combo gun and timing it wouldn't be cheap. Get a decent red LED light and a starter gun or borrow a gun and get some time on your boots. If you get hooked, you'll have plenty more sleepless nights and lots more time searching the site for answers to your new obsession. I suggested a shotgun because you will always have a need for a good shotgun and it will teach you a lot by having to call animals within 50yds. My 3.5" 12ga was one of the first guns I used for fox and I still have it and still use it. No money wasted there and it will always serve me well. It also cost me $279 and was ready to go out of the box. Just trying to save you the many thousands of dollars I spent chasing my tail. And yes I'm still chasing, but I like hunting the gun as much as the animals
crazy.gif


Some of the most successful predator hunters out there carry an 870 with a good load of #4 buck and a few mouth calls. Predator hunting is rarely what you see in a magazine or on a DVD, although some sources are getting better at depicting reality. Especially here in the east. As suggested, see what others in your area use. The more I hunt, the less I worry about shooting far and the more appealing my Mossberg becomes. Catch Kirk McKendrie at a seminar in PA. He is very knowledgeable and will get you going. I think he has one coming up in Altoona this month. He uses shotgun, rifle, FoxPro, and hand calls and has hunted all over and is very successful.

By the way, you may have noticed, the Baikal will kill stuff too
wink.gif
. Just wanted you to know the not so glamorous parts of having one. As for groundhog guns, that should be a whole post in itself
grin.gif
.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleUpMack, seems to me like you need to use a shotgun right now. You said most of your shots will be under 50 yds. so the shotgun will cover that nicely. It is easy to be excited about something and jump in and buy a bunch of stuff that you really don't need. Most of us have probably done that to some degree.

Right now you just need to find out if this is something that you are really going to do and stick with or will you go a few times and become disinterested. Finding someone to hunt with you who has a rifle will let you cover long and short. Boondocks and these other PA guys can help you more since they hunt there, but I'm thinking foxes are a lot more likely to be in your bag than coyotes. Welcome to the forum and the great sport of predator hunting.

Yes, 100% sure most of my shots will be under 50 yards, especially on fox, I know my property well and there are many places where I can stretch a shot to 200 yards easily, possibly 300 yards. While these shots are unlikely, they are certainly possible, which is why I said I considered a rifle originally. Then I shot the opossum the other night while walking back to the truck, and realized I might need a shotgun. These two things made me consider the combination gun.

Also, while I don't live in AZ, TX, or NM, I do think coyotes are more likely to be taken in my area than fox. Although we do have a few grays running around, we rarely see them and when we do, it is almost always during deer drives.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: ARCOREY
PICT0300.JPG



May I ask what light setup you're running there? Red/white/green/blue/amber? How far can you I.D. targets? How much light does that Nikon gather? You said you've never had any "bite" with that scope? What mounts are using? I'm sorry for bombarding you with questions, but your post was just what I was looking for and I'm jumping into this whole night hunting thing with both feet.
 
Originally Posted By: rpc55I also highly recommend you look up Andrew Lewand on Amazon and buy a couple of his books. I have the coyote and red fox books and they are fantastic for beginers and experienced hunters. Andrew is a member here and goes by bhw. Do a search here on him or just go the the Hunting in the East board and you can see for yourself how sucsessful he is. He uses a .223 rifle a lot.

Thanks for the info! I checked out his website and read a few articles. Seems to be a very knowledgeable hunter. What specific books do you have? I'm thinking of the Red Fox Focus and Eastern Coyote Challenge.
 
Originally Posted By: MACK133
May I ask what light setup you're running there? Red/white/green/blue/amber? How far can you I.D. targets? How much light does that Nikon gather? You said you've never had any "bite" with that scope? What mounts are using? I'm sorry for bombarding you with questions, but your post was just what I was looking for and I'm jumping into this whole night hunting thing with both feet.

It is part of my EWT Predator Pack from Boondock Outdoors. It is the EWT XLR 250 in red. I use a double sided Velcro cable tie around the forearm for the remote switch and to keep it universal to all my guns. My opinion of ID and a lot of other people differ. I am much more conservative in what I call a true ID. For me I'd say a coyote at 150-200yds in the open max, prefer 100yds or less. Foxes about 100yds tops in the open, more like 75-80yds to be comfortable. I can see them a lot farther, just around here, you have to ID the difference between a grey fox and a the farmers wife's black tabby cat at shooting distance as well as a 40lb coyote versus the farmers shepherd or husky at night. I don't shoot until a species and color markings are clearly identified. I know when I have shot a red or grey fox, not just a fox sized something that looked like a fox
wink.gif
.

The Nikons are all I have been using at night for a long time with the minor exception of my Pentax Gameseeker on my 17HMR, which some day will likely get swapped out. The Nikoplex reticle is heavy making it easy to spot in low light conditions. They are also very durable holding up to stout recoil like the Baikal and my T/C Omega .50cal ML. I have 3 of the Buckmasters in 4x-12x-50mm SF and one Prostaff in 3x-9x-50mm. Good value for the money in my opinion. Like target ID range, light transmission is subjective to the end user. I can say that I preferred these over the VXII, but mostly due to the fine, hard to see Leupold reticle and friction turrets. I believe my lack of getting sucker punched by the scope is the fact that I shoot both eyes open and absorb recoil fairly well and set it up with a generous amount of clearance by pushing it as far forward as I could. I will say, this 3" 12ga combo gun makes the recoil of my Mossberg 3.5" with heavy buckshot loads seem like a pellet gun. I'll shoot a box through my 835 before 1 shot out of the Russian
tongue.gif
.

The rings are Millet steel windage adjustable for a dovetail rail. I torgued the ring bottoms down very, very hard onto my gun and they don't budge. I torqued the top caps normally though. I want to say the rings are for 13mm rails and the gun is 11mm. It has been a while since I looked into the exact sizes. These are for a 1" scope.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOREYOriginally Posted By: MACK133
May I ask what light setup you're running there? Red/white/green/blue/amber? How far can you I.D. targets? How much light does that Nikon gather? You said you've never had any "bite" with that scope? What mounts are using? I'm sorry for bombarding you with questions, but your post was just what I was looking for and I'm jumping into this whole night hunting thing with both feet.

It is part of my EWT Predator Pack from Boondock Outdoors. It is the EWT XLR 250 in red. I use a double sided Velcro cable tie around the forearm for the remote switch and to keep it universal to all my guns. My opinion of ID and a lot of other people differ. I am much more conservative in what I call a true ID. For me I'd say a coyote at 150-200yds in the open max, prefer 100yds or less. Foxes about 100yds tops in the open, more like 75-80yds to be comfortable. I can see them a lot farther, just around here, you have to ID the difference between a grey fox and a the farmers wife's black tabby cat at shooting distance as well as a 40lb coyote versus the farmers shepherd or husky at night. I don't shoot until a species and color markings are clearly identified. I know when I have shot a red or grey fox, not just a fox sized something that looked like a fox
wink.gif
.

The Nikons are all I have been using at night for a long time with the minor exception of my Pentax Gameseeker on my 17HMR, which some day will likely get swapped out. The Nikoplex reticle is heavy making it easy to spot in low light conditions. They are also very durable holding up to stout recoil like the Baikal and my T/C Omega .50cal ML. I have 3 of the Buckmasters in 4x-12x-50mm SF and one Prostaff in 3x-9x-50mm. Good value for the money in my opinion. Like target ID range, light transmission is subjective to the end user. I can say that I preferred these over the VXII, but mostly due to the fine, hard to see Leupold reticle and friction turrets. I believe my lack of getting sucker punched by the scope is the fact that I shoot both eyes open and absorb recoil fairly well and set it up with a generous amount of clearance by pushing it as far forward as I could. I will say, this 3" 12ga combo gun makes the recoil of my Mossberg 3.5" with heavy buckshot loads seem like a pellet gun. I'll shoot a box through my 835 before 1 shot out of the Russian
tongue.gif
.

The rings are Millet steel windage adjustable for a dovetail rail. I torgued the ring bottoms down very, very hard onto my gun and they don't budge. I torqued the top caps normally though. I want to say the rings are for 13mm rails and the gun is 11mm. It has been a while since I looked into the exact sizes. These are for a 1" scope.

Obviously, .223 and 12 Gauge cartridges have different trajectories. Do you find both barrels shoot to the same POI simply by aiming with the crosshairs? Virginia has similar terrain and conditions to PA, so I ask what range is your scope sighted at?
 
I have a bushmaster carbon 15...(Sorta) I've upgraded all of the internals with match grade parts... Added a Magpul UBR, With a pulsar N750 Plus an extra IR (not that I ever have to use it, but its nice to have) ...This rig will put 55gr VMax into a 3/4 inch group... and has a detection range of 600 yards, you can ID animals our to 350-400 yards... I typically don't shoot much past 300
Love it
FZpmTER.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: RudiI have a bushmaster carbon 15...(Sorta) I've upgraded all of the internals with match grade parts... Added a Magpul UBR, With a pulsar N750 Plus an extra IR (not that I ever have to use it, but its nice to have) ...This rig will put 55gr VMax into a 3/4 inch group... and has a detection range of 600 yards, you can ID animals our to 350-400 yards... I typically don't shoot much past 300
Love it
FZpmTER.jpg


While I would love to be able to hunt with an AR, in PA we are not allowed to hunt with semi-automatic rifles. At all.
cursing.gif
 
Last edited:
I have not tested my POI as much with the shotgun as I would like to due to cost and the nasty recoil, but it seems to be good around 35-40yds while the rifle is sighted in at 50yds now. I have the new scope on it, so I may play with this a little more this year come warmer weather and check both barrels again. I have an inline black powder shotgun that has piqued my interest as well as an AR in 17rem for predators, so the combo has once again hit the back burner. Most people want the barrels matched to the same POI at the same distance. I think this is counterproductive. I would want the shotgun to hit well out to 40yds or so and have the rifle pick things up from there. I haven't messed with my barrel tuning so far. I may if I get more time and money to test further.
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top