The .17 is one of my favorites but I do feel that to get the most benefit you have to be a reloader. As with Fox, the 30gr starke/nagel is a good one in my opionion. I like the Hammett heavy weights too. The .17 is just as good a killer as any of the others in my opinion with the right bullet. The Rem factory is one of the worst loads in my experience. I don't like the 25's but make exception to the 25 Starke/Nagel. It is a killer but like the 30's better. I killed a 42-lber last year with my .17 and it was bang/flop.
.17 REM for Coyotes (People that actually shot them)
- Thread starter Guido
- Start date
Handloader
New member
Counterpoint: I have two rifles in 17 Rem, a Kimber and a HB custom built on a Sako action. I handload for them, prefering the Berger 25gr. My experience on coyotes is different than that reported so far, enough so that these two rifles are relegated to prairie dogs and dispatching jackrabbits. In that useage, rabbits and prairie dogs, it has been an exceptional cartridge. Coyotes have died hard even with well placed shots.
Coyotes have been shot off of stands and usually under 75 yards. I shot 36 coyotes and most required follow up shots, however, seven dropped immediately. Failure to penetrate adequately was observed on some hits and failure to expand (total penetration) was observed on others. I agree the Bergers were the most consistent that I tried.
On a recent hunt a friend brought his 17 Rem BDL, shot three coyotes and wounded three coyotes. His bobcat died on the spot. All shots under 100yds using factory Remington ammo. He won't be bringing it in the future as his 223 Rem has never had such erratic performance and wounding even coyotes is most unfortunate. I believe there are more humane cartridges that increase the instant kill potential (most centerfire 22s in the 223, 22-250, 220 Swift class, and the good old 243) and in the areas where we call there is no reason not to use them.
Both of my 17 Remingtons keep 5/100 in the .5MOA area. In that regard it is very consistent.
I am pleased to hear that others have had better experiences with their coyote hunting/shooting and it is only my intent to present my experiences in an attempt to balance what has been presented here.
Byron South
New member
Guido,
Thanks for your servise. Stay safe, and come home soon.
I don't own one, but have been around a few on hunts. It seems that most of these guns are bang, flop killers when I'm not around. I guess I'm just bad luck, but I have seen them fail several times to make clean kills with well placed shots. Most of the time that I've seen them fail is when they strike bone and splash creating a surface wound and not damageing the vitals. Coyotes can run long and hard on three legs, but don't do well without lungs. Don't wish to upset anyone or tell them what to use. I just prefer a larger caliber that will allow me any angle shot at the boiler room and not have to worry about getting there. My choice as most of you know is the 223. Heavier bullets, better penatration, and lower velocity all equate to a pretty reliable goody getter that is for the most part very fur friendly. It doesn't shoot 4000 fps but it don't shoot 25-30 grain pellets either. I have seen the 22 centerfires fail too but 55-60 grain bullets fail less and penatrate better any day of the week than 25-30 grainers. No flames, I just feel that their are better options out there that don't have the limitations the 17 has. Just one mans opinion and experience.
Byron
Thanks for your servise. Stay safe, and come home soon.
I don't own one, but have been around a few on hunts. It seems that most of these guns are bang, flop killers when I'm not around. I guess I'm just bad luck, but I have seen them fail several times to make clean kills with well placed shots. Most of the time that I've seen them fail is when they strike bone and splash creating a surface wound and not damageing the vitals. Coyotes can run long and hard on three legs, but don't do well without lungs. Don't wish to upset anyone or tell them what to use. I just prefer a larger caliber that will allow me any angle shot at the boiler room and not have to worry about getting there. My choice as most of you know is the 223. Heavier bullets, better penatration, and lower velocity all equate to a pretty reliable goody getter that is for the most part very fur friendly. It doesn't shoot 4000 fps but it don't shoot 25-30 grain pellets either. I have seen the 22 centerfires fail too but 55-60 grain bullets fail less and penatrate better any day of the week than 25-30 grainers. No flames, I just feel that their are better options out there that don't have the limitations the 17 has. Just one mans opinion and experience.
Byron
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Guido
New member
I'm glad I get to hear some from the other side also. I am a very thick headed Italian though, and I may have to "see for myself" how this is going to work out. I do have a very accurate Voere bolt chambered in 223 that I got from Austria when I was stationed and hunting heavily in Europe and I know what that can do to a fox at 300 meters, so I have no dought it would work on the coyotes.
Here's my plan, Since I'm new at predator hunting in the US I don't want to have too many variables that would ruin my hunt so I until I get the hang of calling and finding good spots to hunt, I may tote the 223. Once I get more comfortable with the hunt itself, I may bring along the .17 and see what it will do for me. I'm going to reload for it anyway because I'll take it up to Montana with me for prarie dogs (which will be all new to me too!)
Not to take my own post off subject, but what are you using in your 223 to minimize fur damage while getting a clean kill? I used 55 grain nosler partitions in Germany on Roe deer I shot with great results and not too much damage at all and they are between 20 and 50 pounds or so.
Thanks again for all the advice guys, I'm enjoying reading and posting on here in my spare time.
Here's my plan, Since I'm new at predator hunting in the US I don't want to have too many variables that would ruin my hunt so I until I get the hang of calling and finding good spots to hunt, I may tote the 223. Once I get more comfortable with the hunt itself, I may bring along the .17 and see what it will do for me. I'm going to reload for it anyway because I'll take it up to Montana with me for prarie dogs (which will be all new to me too!)
Not to take my own post off subject, but what are you using in your 223 to minimize fur damage while getting a clean kill? I used 55 grain nosler partitions in Germany on Roe deer I shot with great results and not too much damage at all and they are between 20 and 50 pounds or so.
Thanks again for all the advice guys, I'm enjoying reading and posting on here in my spare time.
Byron South
New member
Guido,
If you can get the 55 partitions to shoot good for you they would be a excelent choice. I shoot the 60 V-max's and have had excelent results with these as well. I shy away from light fast bullets as most were desinged for explosive, shallow results on PD's. Many have used light, fast bullets for coyoytes with great results. I have used them but was not impressed. Less fur damage and the ability to see the impact are the "light/fast" arguments, but my experience with the 223(Which is considerable)is that it is pretty dang fur friendly with the 60-V-maxs. You will get to occational exit put they are usually acceptable trade of for the performance. The parition should penatrate fully a larger precentage of the time but I would think the exit hole would be inconsequencial to your fur. Quinton Wagoner puts up more shot coyote fur than any one I know and he shoots a 220 swift. If it was rough on fur I doubt very seriously he would use it. The 223 if just an anemic version of the swift. It does the same thing the swift does just 100 yard closer. Called coyotes are usually shot at ranges well under 200 yards and this is where the 223 shines. Back to being able to see the impact, I can see where shooting PD's this would be a hoot, but see no practicle purpose when shooting coyotes.
Come home soon and be safe.
Byron
If you can get the 55 partitions to shoot good for you they would be a excelent choice. I shoot the 60 V-max's and have had excelent results with these as well. I shy away from light fast bullets as most were desinged for explosive, shallow results on PD's. Many have used light, fast bullets for coyoytes with great results. I have used them but was not impressed. Less fur damage and the ability to see the impact are the "light/fast" arguments, but my experience with the 223(Which is considerable)is that it is pretty dang fur friendly with the 60-V-maxs. You will get to occational exit put they are usually acceptable trade of for the performance. The parition should penatrate fully a larger precentage of the time but I would think the exit hole would be inconsequencial to your fur. Quinton Wagoner puts up more shot coyote fur than any one I know and he shoots a 220 swift. If it was rough on fur I doubt very seriously he would use it. The 223 if just an anemic version of the swift. It does the same thing the swift does just 100 yard closer. Called coyotes are usually shot at ranges well under 200 yards and this is where the 223 shines. Back to being able to see the impact, I can see where shooting PD's this would be a hoot, but see no practicle purpose when shooting coyotes.
Come home soon and be safe.
Byron
R Buker
New member
I can agree with Byron regarding coyotes. If I weren't mostly geared up for red foxes, I think I'd opt for the .223 or .22-250. But, I have seen what those big calibers do to foxes. Considering I keep all my fur and tan it myself, I don't want shot up animals. If I left 'em lay, I'd go much bigger, plow 'em under and forget it.
In fact, I frequently tote my .243 along whenI hunt the open spaces in North Dakota. It's a nice rifle and I like to shoot it. I shoot soft point 100gr factory ammo. That's not toooo hard on fur if you don't hit bone.
I guess either way is a draw. Hit bone with a big caliber and those fragments will devastate the fur. Hit bone with a .17 rem and that bone may prevent penetration. It all depends on what youwant to do with the critter once he's dead.
In fact, I frequently tote my .243 along whenI hunt the open spaces in North Dakota. It's a nice rifle and I like to shoot it. I shoot soft point 100gr factory ammo. That's not toooo hard on fur if you don't hit bone.
I guess either way is a draw. Hit bone with a big caliber and those fragments will devastate the fur. Hit bone with a .17 rem and that bone may prevent penetration. It all depends on what youwant to do with the critter once he's dead.
Byron South
New member
Great point Randy.
Wait a minute...... lets mark this on the wall.... your agreeing with me about the 17?
My main objective when shooting an animal is first and formost a quick, humain kill. Splash wounds on coyotes shoulders often lead to a wounded but very much alive coyotes. Sure the fur may still be good (However I've seen some nasty spalash wounds) but the coyote is still, very much alive, in pain, and sometimes difficult to recover. Shot with a bigger gun the odds swing more in favor of acheiving a quik, humain kill. Sure they will wound some too but the odds are drastically reduced when bullet weight/energy is increased. High vlocity 22's can be tough on fur for sure, and the 17 will definately kill a coyote, but I honestly believe down to my bones that the 17 is marginal at best. With this said you have to ask yourself, do I want a caliber that has more "potential" to splach or do I want a caliber that has more "potential" to create an exit. In my mind the answer is clear. I want a bullet that has less potentilal to splash thus ensuring I get to the goody regarless of bone. This makes for a very dead coyote. Why with all the choices available would you want to place limits on yourself when obvious (at least in my experience) better choices exist. The 223 is not perfect but nothing really is. There is nothing fancy about this tired old caliber and people don't go WOW when you drag it out but it is a workhorse. The 223 has lots better choices in bullets suitable for shooting the larger predators than the sub-calibers ever will. Their are some better bullets available to the handloader for the sub caliber guns but they are still on the light side IMHO. I'm not married to the 223 either. If I hunted where shots over 200 were common I would shoot a 250, swift or maybe a 243. As Randy stated the 243 is not to tough on fur with the tougher bullets. A good friend of mine uses a 243 exclusively with 100 core locts, he doesn't save the fur but most he shoots only have minimal damage.
I'm not against guys using 17's or the new 20's. If that's what floats their boat, then more power to them, but to say they are just as effective is just failing to face reality. No flames intended just simple physics. The old 7 mag out does them both. Why? because it's bigger. No different than the reasoning why the 223 out performs the 17. There are tradoffs in what you are willing to tolerate in recoil, killing potential, and fur damage. The 22's just fit in where I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs.
Good Hunting
Byron
Wait a minute...... lets mark this on the wall.... your agreeing with me about the 17?
My main objective when shooting an animal is first and formost a quick, humain kill. Splash wounds on coyotes shoulders often lead to a wounded but very much alive coyotes. Sure the fur may still be good (However I've seen some nasty spalash wounds) but the coyote is still, very much alive, in pain, and sometimes difficult to recover. Shot with a bigger gun the odds swing more in favor of acheiving a quik, humain kill. Sure they will wound some too but the odds are drastically reduced when bullet weight/energy is increased. High vlocity 22's can be tough on fur for sure, and the 17 will definately kill a coyote, but I honestly believe down to my bones that the 17 is marginal at best. With this said you have to ask yourself, do I want a caliber that has more "potential" to splach or do I want a caliber that has more "potential" to create an exit. In my mind the answer is clear. I want a bullet that has less potentilal to splash thus ensuring I get to the goody regarless of bone. This makes for a very dead coyote. Why with all the choices available would you want to place limits on yourself when obvious (at least in my experience) better choices exist. The 223 is not perfect but nothing really is. There is nothing fancy about this tired old caliber and people don't go WOW when you drag it out but it is a workhorse. The 223 has lots better choices in bullets suitable for shooting the larger predators than the sub-calibers ever will. Their are some better bullets available to the handloader for the sub caliber guns but they are still on the light side IMHO. I'm not married to the 223 either. If I hunted where shots over 200 were common I would shoot a 250, swift or maybe a 243. As Randy stated the 243 is not to tough on fur with the tougher bullets. A good friend of mine uses a 243 exclusively with 100 core locts, he doesn't save the fur but most he shoots only have minimal damage.
I'm not against guys using 17's or the new 20's. If that's what floats their boat, then more power to them, but to say they are just as effective is just failing to face reality. No flames intended just simple physics. The old 7 mag out does them both. Why? because it's bigger. No different than the reasoning why the 223 out performs the 17. There are tradoffs in what you are willing to tolerate in recoil, killing potential, and fur damage. The 22's just fit in where I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs.
Good Hunting
Byron
R Buker
New member
Quote:
Great point Randy.
Wait a minute...... lets mark this on the wall.... your agreeing with me about the 17?
I honestly believe down to my bones that the 17 is marginal at best.
Byron
Byron,
I wrote it on the wall. Boy is my wife ticked off!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
But, I have to agree only to a point. Where I hunt, I hunt on snow. Those coyotes that don't "bang-flop" generally still only run a matter of fifty or so yards before expiring. The key is that I can track them and I do collect them. Because of this, I believe that the .17rem goes past marginal. It goes to very good, the same place I'd rank the .223.
Now, if I hunted on hard pan with lots of brush like you do, I'd give you the nod that it's marginal to good. You would be likely to loose a few that certainly expired but were not able to be found without a dog.
And, I have to give Randy Watson credit when he says it's not a good choice for night hunting. The .17rem doesn't drop them dead in their tracks often enough for night hunting. At night, if the critter runs out of the light, it can be mighty hard to find even if they only go twenty yards. (But, don't you dare tell him I agree with him or I'll deny it till I die. He razzes me way too much for me to ever admit he MIGHT be right) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
With all that being said. It's still a superior fox round. It does less damage to the fragile critters and kills them as dead as they need to be. I refuse to carry something else because it might have a slight edge over the .17 for coyotes, especially when and if you hunt over snow.
No one will ever tell me the .17 rem is ineffective for coyotes. That's BS. I will conceed that it's maybe not AS EFFECTIVE as other calibers in certain situations.
Now, if you'll excuse me, my wife just brought me some cleaner and is pointing at the wall I recently wrote on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Randy
Great point Randy.
Wait a minute...... lets mark this on the wall.... your agreeing with me about the 17?
I honestly believe down to my bones that the 17 is marginal at best.
Byron
Byron,
I wrote it on the wall. Boy is my wife ticked off!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
But, I have to agree only to a point. Where I hunt, I hunt on snow. Those coyotes that don't "bang-flop" generally still only run a matter of fifty or so yards before expiring. The key is that I can track them and I do collect them. Because of this, I believe that the .17rem goes past marginal. It goes to very good, the same place I'd rank the .223.
Now, if I hunted on hard pan with lots of brush like you do, I'd give you the nod that it's marginal to good. You would be likely to loose a few that certainly expired but were not able to be found without a dog.
And, I have to give Randy Watson credit when he says it's not a good choice for night hunting. The .17rem doesn't drop them dead in their tracks often enough for night hunting. At night, if the critter runs out of the light, it can be mighty hard to find even if they only go twenty yards. (But, don't you dare tell him I agree with him or I'll deny it till I die. He razzes me way too much for me to ever admit he MIGHT be right) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
With all that being said. It's still a superior fox round. It does less damage to the fragile critters and kills them as dead as they need to be. I refuse to carry something else because it might have a slight edge over the .17 for coyotes, especially when and if you hunt over snow.
No one will ever tell me the .17 rem is ineffective for coyotes. That's BS. I will conceed that it's maybe not AS EFFECTIVE as other calibers in certain situations.
Now, if you'll excuse me, my wife just brought me some cleaner and is pointing at the wall I recently wrote on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Randy
Blakeinator
New member
Quote:
On a recent hunt a friend brought his 17 Rem BDL, shot three coyotes and wounded three coyotes. His bobcat died on the spot. All shots under 100yds using factory Remington ammo. He won't be bringing it in the future as his 223 Rem has never had such erratic performance and wounding even coyotes is most unfortunate. I believe there are more humane cartridges that increase the instant kill potential (most centerfire 22s in the 223, 22-250, 220 Swift class, and the good old 243) and in the areas where we call there is no reason not to use them.
Both of my 17 Remingtons keep 5/100 in the .5MOA area. In that regard it is very consistent.
I am pleased to hear that others have had better experiences with their coyote hunting/shooting and it is only my intent to present my experiences in an attempt to balance what has been presented here.
I had a buddy who shot a coyote at 35-40 yrds twice with a 308 and 150 grain ballistic silvertips and we still had to run it down a 100 yrds and finish it with a third shot point blank. Opposing legs(one front and one rear) was all he had too. Ask me how that happened? Shot placement is the answer. Your buddy may have accurate .17 and can shoot .5 at the range etc. but what happened in the field certainly wasn't that...or else he'd have killed three coyotes.
Maybe he did and they all did 30-50 yrd lung runners and no one bothered to look? Eitherway...if i place shots with a .17 hmr they die like crazy...but if my buddy doesn't place shots with a 308 they don't...its all shot placement. Thats it, end of story.
We've had the 'over penetration' and still seen them take off wounded. In other posts you'll see about that gal who killed a grizzly bear with a .22 lr...so its not really a power issue as much as it is a shot placement issue.
If legs and hips are where they are hit then nothing short of a bazooka is gonna do the job. Guts...same thing. Vital hits are just that...they go down. I know i'm repetative but...i shot a coyote at 250 yrds with 95 grain ballistic silver tips out of my .243 perfect broadside in the lungs and it did the same 50 yrd runner that lots of coyotes i shoot in the lungs at 50-100 yrds broadside lungs with my .17 hmr do.
You'll never convince me in these topics it has a whole lot to do with caliber...from my own experience its all shot placement...so thats what i know. Its nothing else.
So i see a thread on 17 remington...i have no experience with them but i do with stuff that has far less zip than they do...so i know dang well its not a lack of power issue at all.
If your not killing coyotes well with a .17 rem inside of 300 yrds then your not shooting well...simple as that. Same rule goes for any other of the calibers we commonly use.
Just one man and his opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
B
p.s. i especially like this quote from Byron...
"There are tradoffs in what you are willing to tolerate in recoil, killing potential, and fur damage. The 22's just fit in where I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs."
and thats what everyone needs to figure out for themselves... the calibers we argue can all get the job done... the question is can the shooter understand the calibers limitations and most importantly...his own?
On a recent hunt a friend brought his 17 Rem BDL, shot three coyotes and wounded three coyotes. His bobcat died on the spot. All shots under 100yds using factory Remington ammo. He won't be bringing it in the future as his 223 Rem has never had such erratic performance and wounding even coyotes is most unfortunate. I believe there are more humane cartridges that increase the instant kill potential (most centerfire 22s in the 223, 22-250, 220 Swift class, and the good old 243) and in the areas where we call there is no reason not to use them.
Both of my 17 Remingtons keep 5/100 in the .5MOA area. In that regard it is very consistent.
I am pleased to hear that others have had better experiences with their coyote hunting/shooting and it is only my intent to present my experiences in an attempt to balance what has been presented here.
I had a buddy who shot a coyote at 35-40 yrds twice with a 308 and 150 grain ballistic silvertips and we still had to run it down a 100 yrds and finish it with a third shot point blank. Opposing legs(one front and one rear) was all he had too. Ask me how that happened? Shot placement is the answer. Your buddy may have accurate .17 and can shoot .5 at the range etc. but what happened in the field certainly wasn't that...or else he'd have killed three coyotes.
Maybe he did and they all did 30-50 yrd lung runners and no one bothered to look? Eitherway...if i place shots with a .17 hmr they die like crazy...but if my buddy doesn't place shots with a 308 they don't...its all shot placement. Thats it, end of story.
We've had the 'over penetration' and still seen them take off wounded. In other posts you'll see about that gal who killed a grizzly bear with a .22 lr...so its not really a power issue as much as it is a shot placement issue.
If legs and hips are where they are hit then nothing short of a bazooka is gonna do the job. Guts...same thing. Vital hits are just that...they go down. I know i'm repetative but...i shot a coyote at 250 yrds with 95 grain ballistic silver tips out of my .243 perfect broadside in the lungs and it did the same 50 yrd runner that lots of coyotes i shoot in the lungs at 50-100 yrds broadside lungs with my .17 hmr do.
You'll never convince me in these topics it has a whole lot to do with caliber...from my own experience its all shot placement...so thats what i know. Its nothing else.
So i see a thread on 17 remington...i have no experience with them but i do with stuff that has far less zip than they do...so i know dang well its not a lack of power issue at all.
If your not killing coyotes well with a .17 rem inside of 300 yrds then your not shooting well...simple as that. Same rule goes for any other of the calibers we commonly use.
Just one man and his opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
B
p.s. i especially like this quote from Byron...
"There are tradoffs in what you are willing to tolerate in recoil, killing potential, and fur damage. The 22's just fit in where I'm willing to accept the tradeoffs."
and thats what everyone needs to figure out for themselves... the calibers we argue can all get the job done... the question is can the shooter understand the calibers limitations and most importantly...his own?
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