22-250 AI suppressed - 19-20" barrel issue

MongoMike

MongoMike

New member
I am having a Remington 700 built in 22-250, and my smith is ready to chamber it. I have asked him to hold off until I decide if I want to go with 22-250 or 22-250 AI. I have about eight other custom Remingtons, and I have owned a 22-250 AI fast twist in the past. I only got about 800 rounds from the last 1-8" 22-250 AI, so this time around I am going with a 1-12" twist barrel only 19-20" long with a #4 Lilja barrel (fluted). This will be a calling rifle only, and will wear a SRT ARMS V.A.P.R. suppressor full time when in use (hence the short barrel). The rifle will ride a Manners EH-4 stock, which is a hunting profile stock with a shorter forend. I plan on 50-55 grain bullets.

Here is my issue. With only a 20" barrel in standard 22-250, I recognize I will be sacrificing some velocity. I have no idea how much, but I would guess about 200fps. I planned to go with 22-250 AI to try to make up for some of the lost velocity. In the past, I was able to get about 175fps more by ackleyizing my 22-250. When I ran this idea past my smith, he said I need at least a 26" barrel to get any extra velocity from from an Ackley Improved round. I didn't argue, but I thought it was a matter of physics... the extra powder in the AI round would give extra velocity, regardless of barrel length. I find it hard to believe four more grains of Varget would not add velocity out of the same length barrel. Am I missing something here??

Your thoughts are welcome.
 
I'm sure you'll get more velocity from the AI in the short barrel. How much more? I don't know and don't want to speculate. Other than, I bet it's "not as much more" as you get from a longer barrel. But, I'm pretty sure, it will still be "more".

I have a .20-250 that was originally a 25" barrel. I had it cut down to 19" for a suppressor. With that barrel, it lost 240 fps from the 6" chop. But, it's still running 39 BK's at 4000 fps. Which, is still certainly more velocity than you'd expect to get from say, a .204R. Hardly apples to apples. As the capacity increase is much more for the '250 case vs. the .204 over the AI vs. the standard. But, it does support your thinking, in that, more capacity does still equal more velocity, even from the much shorter barrel.

- DAA
 
Originally Posted By: DAAI'm sure you'll get more velocity from the AI in the short barrel. How much more? I don't know and don't want to speculate. Other than, I bet it's "not as much more" as you get from a longer barrel. But, I'm pretty sure, it will still be "more".

I have a .20-250 that was originally a 25" barrel. I had it cut down to 19" for a suppressor. With that barrel, it lost 240 fps from the 6" chop. But, it's still running 39 BK's at 4000 fps. Which, is still certainly more velocity than you'd expect to get from say, a .204R. Hardly apples to apples. As the capacity increase is much more for the '250 case vs. the .204 over the AI vs. the standard. But, it does support your thinking, in that, more capacity does still equal more velocity, even from the much shorter barrel.

- DAA

I'd say this pretty well nailed it. Also, maybe politely remind your gunsmith who's paying the bill and if you want a 22-250AI with a 19-20 inch barrel, as the paying customer, that's what you should get. You gain very little case capacity when you "improve" the 250 case but case capacity isn't everything and there are other areas it makes it more worth while.
 
I would want my gunsmith to let me know if I was making a grave configuration mistake in a build. This guy has built five excellent rifles for me and I normally trust his judgement. I guess in this case he and I(and most of my expert friends on this forum) disagree. I have a nice set of Redding competition neck dies for 22-250 AI going to waste, so you guys convinced me to go to that caliber.
 
Code:

Code: 
Cartridge          : .22-250 Rem
Bullet             : .224, 55, Nosler BalTip 39526
Useable Case Capaci: 39.837 grain H2O = 2.587 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.350 inch = 59.69 mm
Barrel Length      : 19.0 inch = 482.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

8 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL17                       103.0     39.7     2.57    3535    97.3    57479   14439   0.838  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            99.0     34.0     2.20    3519   100.0    60000   12808   0.833  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223                      93.0     38.0     2.47    3512    97.7    60000   13608   0.831  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            98.1     36.0     2.34    3509    97.3    60000   13688   0.837  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame                     98.5     38.5     2.50    3506    97.1    60000   13567   0.830  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                       103.0     40.0     2.59    3505    92.3    59719   13998   0.831  ! Near Maximum !



Code:

Code: 
Cartridge          : .22-250 Ackley
Bullet             : .224, 55, Nosler BalTip 39526
Useable Case Capaci: 43.242 grain H2O = 2.808 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.378 inch = 60.40 mm
Barrel Length      : 19.0 inch = 482.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 103 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

10 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant RL17                       101.2     42.3     2.74    3615    98.5    60000   15280   0.831  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                     100.1     42.2     2.73    3541    93.4    60000   14774   0.840  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                       100.1     42.2     2.73    3541    93.4    60000   14774   0.840  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            95.9     35.7     2.32    3539   100.0    60000   13327   0.843  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223                      90.2     40.1     2.60    3537    98.2    60000   14248   0.840  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            95.3     38.0     2.46    3537    97.9    60000   14346   0.845  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame                     95.5     40.6     2.63    3533    97.7    60000   14221   0.840  ! Near Maximum !

 
todbartell,

I love that software program, especially since it factors in the barrel length in the calculations. What is it?

I must admit I am disappointed in the velocity gains between the standard rounds and ackley improved in the chart. I was expecting a lot more. With some 4895 it was only a 28fps gain with 2 more grains of powder. I'll probably be using H380 or Varget or IMR4064.

Without going back in my records for my last 22-250 AI, it seems like I was using about 4 more grains of Varget between my fireform loads and the AI finished version.
 
The program is QuickLoad. I use it a lot for making comparisons. The actual figures are just ball park, but it's close enough to play around with a "what if".
 
I really see no down side to the 22-250AI. I had my standard 22-250 rebarreled to an ackley several years back and have never regretted it. It started as a 26" 1/12 twist. And I was shooting 60 grain Bergers 3800 fps with 38.2 grains of RL15. I didn't like the balance of the rifle so I cut off 3" of barrel and with the same load I only lost 90 fps. Now I like the balance alot better and its still running a little over 3700 fps with a 23" barrel. So I bet your gain will be around 200 fps gain over the standard 22-250.
 
Quickload

Case capacity will effect powder charges/velocity/pressure. Their default for the 22-250 standard is 43.5grs H20, for the Ackley is 46.9grs h20. I have never myself measured either cartridge so I can't add anything there. It is likely that your 22-250 Ackley could have more capacity and that would allow for more powder. More powder = more speed.

I'd really lean towards Ackley just for the lack of case trimming, and that you already have dies
 
I too like a zero freebore, but I guess that will depend on the reamer already owned by my gunsmith. I will ask about it.

I also always ask him to cut me chamber gauge with the material he cuts off the end of the barrel.
 
Originally Posted By: ackleymancut the bbl as long as you can and rock on with an AI. I would go with a zero freebore AI, 12 twist.

Why such a slow twist? Seems a waste to handicap such a rifle....
 
A 12 twist is perfect for the 22-250AI. Shoots great with anything from 40-65 grain bullets and shoots them fast. If you want to shoot heavier bullets buy a .244 or .257 bore chambering......
 
Yeah, the [beeep] with BC, and efficient bullet design...

Personally, I cant see a use for anything slower than a 9 twist in a .22. They shoot the light stuff just fine, while allowing the really useful stuff to still be shot.
 
To each his own... Your "useful stuff" isn't "my" useful stuff.

I've worn out two 8 twist .22-250AI barrels. Didn't use them for coyotes though. But did wear them out killing other stuff. Loved the 75's and 80's for that application. But wouldn't have any use for 75's or 80's out of a calling rifle, myself. The rainbow trajectory at calling distances and the erratic terminal performance are too much of a disadvantage to me.

55's and 60's work better, for me, for coyotes. On a coyote stand, flat mid range is far more useful than better wind cutting or trajectory advantage that doesn't start until well beyond any shot I'm actually going to take. Your useful stuff, just isn't, for most guys, on a calling stand.

And the slower twists just plain work better with those bullets. Not to mention the barrels last more than twice as long. I've worn out a 14 twist .22-250AI too (and a pair of factory vanilla '250 barrels one each in 12 and 14). Currently the only .22-250AI I own is a 12 twist (third barrel for that rifle). If I ever wear that one out, I'll get another 12.

I think it would be kind of dumb to use an 8 twist knowing it's going to shoot 55's and 60's it's whole life (which, would be a much shorter life, with the fast twist...).

That's my choice, for my coyote hunting, and I'm confident it's the better choice for me. It ain't like I haven't put plenty of 75's and 80's downrange at beating hearts. And it ain't like I haven't killed well over a thousand called coyotes and seen a thousand more killed. I kinda know what works best for me. But fast twist guys just never seem to get it.

- DAA
 
Whatever floats your boat. But on called coyotes where 90% of your shots are 300 yards and less a 60 grain bullet with a B.C of .278 running 3700 fps is perfect. If you are shooting steel at 1000 yards then yes those high B.C VLD bullets would be better......
 
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