22-250 difficult to chamber after FL resizing

Originally Posted By: DABOriginally Posted By: fw707Originally Posted By: venaticHe has no shell holder to grind down....it’s a Forster.

It can be did.
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Not with a Forster.
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With the Forster you would have to grind down the die itself.


Nope....

I have 2 Co-ax presses. I had a gunsmith take .010 off (both sets) of the top of the shell holder jaws with a surface grinder.


Originally Posted By: DAB
Read what Catshooter has posted on this subject.
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I read what he posted, and I agree with him completely.
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The OP's die/shell holder combination is allowing his fired brass to go in the FL die far enough to squeeze the case to a length that's longer than the fired measurement, but it's not allowing the brass to go far enough into the die to bump the shoulder back shorter than the actual chamber length.
That's why the bolt won't close.
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I had 2 sets of dies that had this problem. They would allow the brass to go in the die far enough to bump the shoulder back about .0005 or so if I really jammed the die down onto the shell holder jaws, but they wouldn't allow me to get the .0015 or .002 bump that I wanted.
Shaving .010 off the shell holder jaws fixed the problem and gave me lots of room to spare.

The OP needs to shave about .010 off his die to fix the problem with that particular die, or he can shave about .010 off his shell holder jaws and prevent the problem with any other dies he uses in that particular press.
 
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OK, so trimming didn't help, It looks like I'm just going to have to keep my die adjusted down a little past just contacting the shell holder jaws. I may shoot Forster an email and see what they say.
 
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Originally Posted By: Roger LondonOK, so trimming didn't help, It looks like I'm just going to have to keep my die adjusted down a little past just contacting the shell holder jaws. I may shoot Forster an email and see what they say.

Nope, just get the shell holder jaws shaved down and your problem will go away.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure Catshooter will correct me,
but my sizing problems went away after doing what I said.

 
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I don't know anyone that has the equipment to do it. Gunsmiths are actually fairly rare around here. Might check with the machinists at work and see if they have the capability.
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Shynloco said:
Roger,

There are some fundamental things to understand about brass and chambers.

1 - Go and no-go gauges tell you very little about case head separations and headspace problems.

"Headspace" (with a capital "H") is the measurement of the length of the case to a certain place on the case (called the datum line).

In the case of the 22-250, the chamber headspace can be from 1.5749" to 1.5849" - so the chamber has a "window" of 10 thou and still make the "Go and no-go" test.

Add to that, the case itself, with a headspace window of from 1.571" to 1.578".

Now, if you are an astute reader, you will see two things - first, a minimum case (1.571") and a maximum chamber (1.5849") leaves 14 thou of slop in the chamber - and it still meets "SAAMI Spec".

The first time that case is fired, it stretched 14 thou... which is the beginning of the terminal "Head fall off syndrome". That case is on it's way to falling off and there is no way to repair that case - you need to prevent the original stretching.

The second thing you will see is a small "overlap" with a minimum chamber and a maximum case of ~3 thou - meaning that a maximum case is 3 thou longer than a minimum chamber.

This is why some new cases are hard to chamber -- it is fine, just close the bolt and shoot it - the extracted case will fit fine the next time around.

When you are having problems chambering full sized cases, there are a few things to suspect, and a few things to do, before even posting a question about it.

Chamber a fired case without sizing - does it chamber easily?

Chamber a FL sized case just after it is out of the sizer (don't load it) - does it chamber easily?

What is not known by many loaders is that cases grow during the FULL SIZING operation. When you full size, the body gets squished before the shoulder comes in contact with the die - so when you squish the body and make it smaller, the brass has to somewhere, and it goes forward - so the case actually gets longer during FL sizing. So FL sizing can make a case that fits the chamber, now NOT fit the chamber, which is why FL sizing can cause more problems that it solves.

If you have problems at either of these two stages, then that is the time to post a question... NOT after the cases have been completely loaded.



Catshooter,
I certainly appreciate your insight and detailed explanation of the potential problems in determining proper headspace and the problems with sizing brass, coupled with perhaps things many reloaders are not aware of when sizing brass. What I experienced was that after firing Remington Brass (R/P) was that without FL sizing, the previously fired brass had a "hard" bolt closure when only Neck Sizing the brass after one firing/no hot loads. On a second firing, no way could you even close the bolt and thus the brass has to be FL sized and then put in the chamber and the bolt closed WITHOUT the casing being loaded with a primer, powder and bullet. Thereafter, those reloaded rounds could be fired with a repeat of the same sequence until after the third - fourth firing, the infamous head separation line made it's appearance on the brass after merely being ejected from the chamber and not being placed into any die, FL or Neck. Hence the only stretching that was done was inside the chamber when fired. And as previously stated, that condition was examined, not by me, by two different experienced Gunsmith who have more than 80 years collectively in build custom made ordinary hunting as well as competition rifles using various custom made and high quality components all the way down to your basic receivers such as Remington 700 actions, Savage actions and back up to the custom Stillers, Vipers and you name them, they've built them. So I have to believe these guys know what they are doing as none of my other rifles, ever experienced what I went through with that 22-250 which now as a 6.5X55 Swede, excels even beyond my shooting abilities and expectations. Lastly if I had it to do all over again, I would have followed the same path and done the same things over again, as I just didn't want to sell a rifle to anyone with the problems that rifle displayed.
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Originally Posted By: Roger LondonI don't know anyone that has the equipment to do it. Gunsmiths are actually fairly rare around here. Might check with the machinists at work and see if they have the capability.

Shouldn't be a problem for a machinist with the right tools.
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Originally Posted By: Roger LondonOK, so trimming didn't help, It looks like I'm just going to have to keep my die adjusted down a little past just contacting the shell holder jaws. I may shoot Forster an email and see what they say.

That's why I asked the question.

It's perfectly acceptable for there to be some cam-over on your press when it comes into contact with your die. Just touching doesn't get it done in some cases. Your not going to hurt the press or the die.
 
It is a whole lot easier and cheaper to just take a bit off the die than to find somebody with a surface grinder and thin the shell plates.

Jack
 
Originally Posted By: Jack RobertsIt is a whole lot easier and cheaper to just take a bit off the die than to find somebody with a surface grinder and thin the shell plates.

Jack

Depends on who ya know. I could have it done for free or damnn close,if I asked a few people I know. That way it's done and don't have to worry again.
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Roger,

All the guys have given some great advice. I really can't add anything more, but I think Furhunter has a point. If your press isn't camming over a little at the bottom of your stroke, it may be possible you don't have the dies screwed in far enough. Like Furhunter said, you won't hurt the Co-ax press one bit by allowing it to cam over a little. I set all my dies up using a headspace gauge like the hornady tool, so I can bump them back the .0015 - .002 that I like. That produces varying degrees of cam over. However, there may be a point where you are just screwing the die in too far, but if your not getting a little cam over right now, you may try screwing them down a bit and seeing what you get. Just one more thing to try, if you haven't already.
 
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A problem that I have ran into when loading for the 22/250 is that it is very easy to stretch the tapered case when re sizing. Be sure that the necks have sufficient lube and are not stretching.
 
Originally Posted By: Roger London I'm not sure Coax presses have any cam over. I will tinker some more and see.

Well, you've asked a question and you've been given some info from folks that have had the same issues with the exact same equipment, and finally figured out how to fix them.
If you want to ignore their advice and keep on "tinkering", I hope you finally figure out how to fix your problem and come back on here and enlighten all of us!
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Good luck, and happy tinkering!

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Originally Posted By: Jack RobertsIt is a whole lot easier and cheaper to just take a bit off the die than to find somebody with a surface grinder and thin the shell plates.

Jack

Really?
 
SDCoyoteCaller,
So far it seems your one of the only people who gets it. Everyone else would rather skip the process of setting up the press and die correctly and go right to grinding shell plates and dies which would forever ruin both.


Originally Posted By: Roger London I'm not sure Coax presses have any cam over. I will tinker some more and see.

Roger,
I will still contend there's nothing wrong with your dies, press, shell plates, rifle, chamber brass etc... It's the incorrect set up of the die that's giving you problems.

The cam over I'm referring to is created between the die and the press ram at full stroke. The handle will stop short of the full stroke when the shell plate contacts the die, then it takes just a little effort on the handle to complete the stroke. Run the ram to the top of the stroke then screw the die down until it makes solid and full contact against the shell plate. Now back the ram off and turn the die down another 1/8 turn, this will create the small amount of cam over needed to properly size your brass. When set properly there should be resistance but you shouldn't have to lean on it to finish the press stroke.

While the Forster lock rings fit the press real well but they are not a perfect zero tolerance fit because you do need to remove them easily. If you set your die up so its just making contact on the shell plate when you size brass it pushes that die up in the press and you won't get a complete size on the brass. Hence the reason for just a little cam over on the press/die to take up that few thousandths of movement to give you a full size out of the die.

I can't splain it any better in typed word. If after this you still don't habla send me a pm and I'll get you my phone number.



Someone should make a video of this..
 
Originally Posted By: Roger London I'm not sure Coax presses have any cam over. I will tinker some more and see.

Roger, I can promise you they do because I own one. Follow Furhunter's explanation above and make sure you get your dies set-up properly. If that doesn't fix your problem then go ahead and start grinding away, but I certainly wouldn't do that before going through the correct procedures to set up the die. I think everyone was assuming you already had the dies setup correctly and were still having problems. From your description of only screwing the die down until it contacts the shellholder, I don't think they are. Again, follow Furhunter's procedures to a "T" and then see if you have any problems.
 
Originally Posted By: FurhunterSDCoyoteCaller,
So far it seems your one of the only people who gets it. Everyone else would rather skip the process of setting up the press and die correctly and go right to grinding shell plates and dies which would forever ruin both.


Yes, SD gets it.
As a matter of fact, he hit the nail on the head right here:

Originally Posted By: SDCoyoteCaller I set all my dies up using a headspace gauge like the hornady tool, so I can bump them back the .0015 - .002 that I like.

If you don't have bump gauges like SD's Hornady or the Sinclair's that I use, you have no idea if your die is set up correctly for the .0015 or .002 shoulder bump that he and I both adjust for.

Originally Posted By: SDCoyoteCaller I set all my dies up using a headspace gauge like the hornady tool, so I can bump them back the .0015 - .002 that I like. That produces varying degrees of cam over.

Exactly.
Varying degrees, from zero to a lot. The amount depends on the dimensions of the die and the shell holder.
Once you get to a certain point past the cam over you are doing nothing more to size the brass. You are only putting more pressure and stress on the press itself.
And if you don't have a bump gauge, you don't know when you've sized the brass to that point.




Adjusting the die might fix Roger's problem, but his first post sounds like he's already cammed the press over and sized his brass as far as it will go.

Originally Posted By: Roger London I suspect that the problem does have something to do with bumping back the shoulder, as if I adjust my FL die in a touch, they do chamber easier, but I can tell I'm putting quite a bit of pressure on the Coax jaws. I have a tendency to agree that outward appearances would suggest shortening the die a tiny touch.

As far as the lock rings are concerned:

Originally Posted By: Furhunter
While the Forster lock rings fit the press real well but they are not a perfect zero tolerance fit because you do need to remove them easily. If you set your die up so its just making contact on the shell plate when you size brass it pushes that die up in the press and you won't get a complete size on the brass. Hence the reason for just a little cam over on the press/die to take up that few thousandths of movement to give you a full size out of the die.


You don't have to cam the press over to seat the die locking ring in the slot in the press. The force of the brass being pushed into the die is plenty enough to do that.


 
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Quote: You don't have to cam the press over to seat the die locking ring in the slot in the press. The force of the brass being pushed into the die is plenty enough to do that.


Well sure it is but if the die isnt touching the shell plate at the top of that stroke because the brass pushed up the die to seat it in the slot, then your not getting a FL size out the operation.

or in other words..

If the brass is taking up the slack in the press rather than the shell plate and die then its not FL sizing the brass.

Quote:Adjusting the die might fix Roger's problem, but his first post sounds like he's already cammed the press over and sized his brass as far as it will go.

Originally Posted By: Roger London I suspect that the problem does have something to do with bumping back the shoulder, as if I adjust my FL die in a touch, they do chamber easier, but I can tell I'm putting quite a bit of pressure on the Coax jaws. I have a tendency to agree that outward appearances would suggest shortening the die a tiny touch.

Kinda depends on a persons idea of easier when it comes to chambering and closing the bolt. I personally dont mind feeling just a touch of resistance when closing the bolt. Others might like it to fall closed.

Was the pressure he talked about with or without a piece of brass in the press?
Roger wasnt to clear on the cam over term so whos to know where it was until he gets back to us.
 
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