.221 Fireball - Effective Range for Coyote

T

TimberDawwg

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I previously lived in Michigan where the Coyote hunting was very close range, I've now moved to Kentucky where some of the stands can present a 300+ yard shot on a call saavy dog.....will the .221 make the trip and perform at that range? I've debated having this gun re-chambered to a 22-250 or 22-250AI.

I've got a .244 AI in the line-up for my western trips, but know from experience that "up close" it has a tendency to be real nasty.

I'd like to know what the realistic effecive range of the .221 is? For a stand that I know will be up-close and personal I usually take my .17 Mach IV.
 
Wrong bolt face... Can't have it rechambered or rebarreled without a first getting a new bolt,, or opening up the existing bolt.. Both are pretty expencive..

I can't say as far as the 221 at those ranges as I've never killed a Coyote with a 221,,, but I think I'd limit the ranges to under 200..

Luck
Charlie
 
I think the short answer is no, it's not enough cartridge.

Why do I think that? Using Ed Mantuna's forumlla for big game bullets, which means using a soft point or similar bullet that holds together reasonably well so the big game bullet equation applies, it's good for:

64 lb animals at 100 yards
43 lb animals at 200 yards
28 lb animals at 300 yards

That is probably pretty optimistic because nearly all .22 caliber 55g bullets are pretty frangible. The bullet (I based the analysis on a max load pushing a 55g NBT) is down to 1800 fps at 300 yards.

You didn't say what make your rifle is. If the magazine is long enough and the bolt face isn't easy to change, you could rechamber it to .223 or even better a 6x45 which have the same bolt face as a .221 FireBall. If it is a savage short action you could rechamber it to be about anything up to a .308 since bolt faces are interchangable on a Savage and magazine parts are available for about any cartridge you can name that fits in the action.

.22-250 or .22-250AI looks like a really good cartridge for your situation. So does a .243 shooting a 70 or 75 grain bullet.

Fitch
 
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It would not surprise me at all if there are a large number of folks shooting 16 inch barreled AR in .223's that are pushing 55gr bullets slower than the .221 Furball is from a 22 inch barrel. I have shot 52gr Bergers at over 3100fps from my CZ so... I'm jus saying..
 
In the 221 Fireball if you start a 40 grain BT Nosler at 3300 fps at 300 yds it will still have 380 ft lbs of energy which should be enough to kill a coyote. At that range it will drop nearly 10 inches so hitting him is going to be the hard part. I have not stretched one out that far but have killed coyotes in excess of 200 with no problem.
 
I think the 221 will do the job out to 300. That is what I use for my calling gun a cz 527 . the farthest I have taken a coyote is 211yrds and he dropped right where he stood. I would not have a problems taking a 300yrd shoot on a yote with the 221 fireball. Im useing a 40gr vmax
 
With a 50 gr Accutip the chart shows 300 yard energy of 563# for .223 & 408# for .221. I have long considered 400# the minimum for coyotes, but also know that in general I limit .223 range around 300 from experience. By that 225-250 yds sounds like a good limit for the .221.





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Comparison
Model AccuTip-V AccuTip-V AccuTip-V
Order No. 29184 29154 29172
Avg Wt Case 5 9 4
Ballistics Coefficient 0.242 0.109 0.238
Caliber 223 Remington 22 Hornet 221 Rem. Fireball
En 100 992 401 753
En 200 753 197 560
En 300 563 99 408
En 400 413 66 292
En 500 297 51 208
En Muzzle 1291 747 996
Index PRA223RB PRA22HNA PRA221FB
L RT100 2.2 -1.5 1.8
L RT150 2.6 zero 1.7
L RT200 2.0 -3.5 zero
L RT250 zero -10.4 -3.4
L RT300 -3.4 -22.3 -8.8
L RT400 -15.7 -68.4 -27.1
L RT500 -37.5 -155.3 -58.8
Model AccuTip-V AccuTip-V AccuTip-V
Order No 29184 29154 29172
Primer Number 7 1/2 6 1/2 7 1/2
S RT100 0.0 -1.5 0.2
S RT150 zero -1.6 zero
S RT200 -1.7 -5.5 -2.2
S RT250 -4.8 -13.0 -6.1
S RT300 -9.4 -25.5 -12.1
S RT50 0.0 -1.5 0.2
Vel 100 2989 2271 2605
Vel 200 2605 1591 2247
Vel 300 2252 1127 1918
Vel 400 1928 924 1622
Vel 500 1635 806 1368
Vel Muzzle 3410 3100 2995
Wt 50 35 50
 
Reloders nest is showing 221FB velocities of the 55gr bullets up to 3300fps using H4198. Thats just as fast as the 223 with a 55gr bullets.

Ive got a 221FB ackley improved with 14 twist that I still havent screwed on and shot yet. I wonder what velocities I can get with a 17" barrel?

If primers werent so hard to come up with lately I'd prolly dig it out a fool with it some more.
 
Originally Posted By: Outlawkyote Reloders nest is showing 221FB velocities of the 55gr bullets up to 3300fps using H4198. Thats just as fast as the 223 with a 55gr bullets.

I don't believe for a minute that a .221 FireBall will shoot a 55g bullet as fast as a .223 out the same length barrel with both loaded for max velocity and within pressure limits regardless of what it says on Reloaders Nest.

It's the same brass where it counts, in the base so it has the same peak pressure determined by the brass strength in the base. Case capacity of 22 water grains for .221 FireBall vs 28.8 in the .223 (SAAMI) or 30.49g which is what my CZ .223 has. That means there is 31% to 40% more powder in the .223Rem. than the .221 FireBall. That powder difference isn't going to be made up by magic in the .221 cartridge. Just plain isn't going to happen.

I tried to get there, closest I could get with powder that would fit in the case was H110 @ ~89,000 psi in a 55,000 psi case. Nope, not gonna happen until sombody repeals the laws of thermodynamics.

Estimating an answer to your other question, in QuickLoad your 17" .221 Fireball looks like it's good for ~2,600 to 2,700 fps with a 55g bullet. The best domestic powder was RE10X which came out at 2,629 fps in a 17" barrel at max load. PBR of around 194 yards

For comparison purposes:

A 55g .223 Rem loaded for my CZ is predicted to have 2994 fps out of a 17" barrel.

A 55g out of a 17" barrel 6x45mm (6-223) is predicted to have a MV of 3,114 fps. With more bore area and the same pressures a .243 bullet goes faster than a .224 bullet of the same weight. Essentially the same PBR as the .223 or ~214 yards.

Fitch
 
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In my experience 3300 or there abouts is what we were getting with a 40 grain NBT over screens at 15 ft. I don't think it is possible with a 55. This was with a 24" barrel in a Remington classic.
 
Originally Posted By: Fitch





A 55g out of a 17" barrel 6x45mm (6-223) is predicted to have a MV of 3,114 fps. With more bore area and the same pressures a .243 bullet goes faster than a .224 bullet of the same weight. Essentially the same PBR as the .223 or ~214 yards.

Fitch

Not to call anyone a lier but I have to dissagree with this statement.
My 22-243 middlested is getting a little more than 4200fps with a 55gr bullet but the 243 is only getting 4000fps. My 80gr bullets are getting close to 3600fps while the 243 are barely getting 3200fps.
 
Originally Posted By: OutlawkyoteOriginally Posted By: Fitch

A 55g out of a 17" barrel 6x45mm (6-223) is predicted to have a MV of 3,114 fps. With more bore area and the same pressures a .243 bullet goes faster than a .224 bullet of the same weight. Essentially the same PBR as the .223 or ~214 yards.

Fitch

Not to call anyone a lier but I have to dissagree with this statement.
My 22-243 middlested is getting a little more than 4200fps with a 55gr bullet but the 243 is only getting 4000fps. My 80gr bullets are getting close to 3600fps while the 243 are barely getting 3200fps.


I wrote "with more bore area, and the same pressures" - the statement is an accurate report of the analysis I did for the .223 and 6x45mm which I related it to - I was trying to explain why a 55g bullet is faster out of a 6x45mm with 17" barrel than it is out of a .223 with 17" barrel - both are using the same brass.

Same pressure applied to more area = more force applied to the same mass. acceleration=Force/mass all day, every day, no exceptions, ever. Increase the force with the same mass, acceleration increases every time.

There is .22-243Win cartridge in QuickLoad - I have no idea if it is the same as the .243 Middlestead or not - it has a peak pressure rating of 56,000 psi. The .22-243Win models in QuickLoad as shooting a 55g NBT @ 3681 fps out of a 26" barrel using VV N560 powder. The .243Win, a 60,191 psi cartridge, models as shooting the 55g NBT @ 3776 fps out of a 26" barrel. The simulations where everything is the same but bore size, and the powders are optimized to maximize velocity for each case, the larger diameter bullet of the same weight goes faster.

However, in this case, the devil is in the details.

If I increase the charge of N560 to match the peak pressure of the .243 load, the bullet leaves the muzzle at 3776 fps. The reason for that is obvious looking at the shape of the pressure curves in QuickLoad.

22-243vs243-C.jpg


N560 holds it's pressure higher after the peak and has higher muzzle exit pressure, so the .22 bullet sees more pressure, and needs more pressure, to reach the same muzzle velocity. In this case the two bullets aren't seeing the same pressure and the smaller diameter one, because it is seeing higher average pressure, is leaving at about the same velocity as the larger diameter one. This can vary all over the map.

I'm accurately reporting the results of my modeling efforts.

You are getting different results. I don't have the data to explain your results.

Fitch
 
while very entertaining these charts and graphs do not replace actual field use and more importantly YOUR actual use
Use it determine for yourself
 
Im not an engineer, cant even spell it...lol
My data in the field is showing a difference though. Ive had several chrono's over the last few years and my data is always similar between the chrono's. I purchased my own reamer ( i have two 22-243 middlested reamers now)so Ive got plenty of experience with the cartridge. Ive built barrels for some friends that are also showing +4200fps with the 55gr bullets so I know I dont have some magic vodoo going on. With the 55gr bullets Im running 40gr of rel15 to acheave those velocities and with the 80gr bullets Im running 44gr of rel22. Ive built barrels with everything from 14 twist to 8 twist from various barrel makers including factory punch out jobs. Most barrels are 26-28" and anything shorter in this overbore cartridge would be a waste of powder. Yes, the 22-243middlested and the 22-243 win have aprox the same powder capicity.
As a side note, Ive gotten the 40's to 4600 and the 35gr mef's to 5100fps.
Thats my reasoning behind going with the 22-243 as compared to the plain 243 was because the increase in velocities Ive been seeing.Ive had a couple 243's years ago and never saw the reasoning behind them excep that they can be an accurate little round. The lack of velocities was the reason Ive turned to wildcatting. Oddly even my 6mmx284 barely got the 80gr bullets past 3600fps. I just cant say the 6mm caliber has done much to impress me when my 2506 will get the 85gr bullets to 3600 and the 100gr bullets to 3440fps.Now that I purchase a 2506AI reamer I can get the 85' past 3800fps and the 100' past 3600.
With the various types of barrels, different types of powders and bullets, modeling something like this is prolly not going to be very accurate, only real world data is going to make or brake a load.
Why your model is showing higher velocities when comparing them..... I dont know dude. Try taking both cartridges and compare them with the powder that each one will be best suited with for that bullet combo.
Now that weve gotten way off toppic.... Did you see the load data listed on reloders nest?
 
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