223 Ackley questions
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Outlawkyote
New member
You can use lee collet dies for 223 because they only crimp the neck.
I have redding Full Length dies for 223AI that I like a lot too.
I have redding Full Length dies for 223AI that I like a lot too.
Rustydust
Active member
Originally Posted By: brdeano.....from my experience....that sounds too high
I think that was a serious burn myself. Here's why:
I brought in my getting slightly long in tooth Savage 112 to Blue Arms in Horseshoe Bend Idaho. He takes off my factory barrel, reams my new ER Shaw barrel into an Ackley, checks the action for square (even cleans it)and puts it all back together. For $125. That right. One hundred and twenty five bucks. And he has done dozens of them. Next time I am at the range the gun is shooting half in groups with ammo that I was fireforming. I am freaking FIREFORMING ammo and it is giving me half inch groups. I think that this is going to be One Fun Gun. I feel so sure of it, that I have taken my Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20X scope and mounted it on it. Even bought new Leupold medium rings for it. It WILL shoot me a one hole group and do it soon. I can just feel it.
I think that was a serious burn myself. Here's why:
I brought in my getting slightly long in tooth Savage 112 to Blue Arms in Horseshoe Bend Idaho. He takes off my factory barrel, reams my new ER Shaw barrel into an Ackley, checks the action for square (even cleans it)and puts it all back together. For $125. That right. One hundred and twenty five bucks. And he has done dozens of them. Next time I am at the range the gun is shooting half in groups with ammo that I was fireforming. I am freaking FIREFORMING ammo and it is giving me half inch groups. I think that this is going to be One Fun Gun. I feel so sure of it, that I have taken my Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20X scope and mounted it on it. Even bought new Leupold medium rings for it. It WILL shoot me a one hole group and do it soon. I can just feel it.
Outlawkyote
New member
AI cartridges commonly shoot very fine groups while fireforming but get a little more finiky when trying to work up a load in fireformed brass.
The orange circle measures exactly .5" on this target. It was snowing out when I shot these groups so I couldnt get a velocity reading.
My newest 223AI is shooting in the low 2's while fireforming brass but chasing the perfect load after the brass is fireformed will take equal patients to any other rifle. The last few 223AI's Ive had all shot very well but I had to do my part at the loading bench too.
Dont get me wrong though, once you find your load, they shoot to beat heck.
The orange circle measures exactly .5" on this target. It was snowing out when I shot these groups so I couldnt get a velocity reading.
My newest 223AI is shooting in the low 2's while fireforming brass but chasing the perfect load after the brass is fireformed will take equal patients to any other rifle. The last few 223AI's Ive had all shot very well but I had to do my part at the loading bench too.
Dont get me wrong though, once you find your load, they shoot to beat heck.
Outlawkyote
New member
28gr of H335 behind a 50gr nosler balistic tip. Its getting 3620fps with that load.
The top target was shot with my 223AI with a Shilen 8 twist barrel crowned at 26". The second target is my 14 twist 223AI Shilen barrel crowned at 26" using the recipe above.
For my fireforming loads, I justuse a thrown load of 25gr of H335 behind a 55gr nosler and seated bullets hard into the lands.
The top target was shot with my 223AI with a Shilen 8 twist barrel crowned at 26". The second target is my 14 twist 223AI Shilen barrel crowned at 26" using the recipe above.
For my fireforming loads, I justuse a thrown load of 25gr of H335 behind a 55gr nosler and seated bullets hard into the lands.
Steve Timm
New member
Originally Posted By: Outlawkyote 28gr of H335 behind a 50gr nosler balistic tip. Its getting 3620fps with that load.
The top target was shot with my 223AI with a Shilen 8 twist barrel crowned at 26". The second target is my 14 twist 223AI Shilen barrel crowned at 26" using the recipe above.
For my fireforming loads, I justuse a thrown load of 25gr of H335 behind a 55gr nosler and seated bullets hard into the lands.
Friend Outlaw,
Just so folks know, I wrote an article on the .223 Ackley Improved in January 1997. I shot the rifle and the various loads to absolute exhaustion. I found the comparison between your data and my data to be very interesting. Actually, the comparison puts the "seal of approval" on both your and my work.
You report that your rifle shot the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic with 28.0 grains of H-335 for a MV of 3,620 fps.
Karen's rifle, in the article, has a 22-inch barrel and the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip with 28.5 grains of H-335 gave 3,601 fps and stunning accuracy.
Bumping up to 29.0 grains of H-335 with the 50-grain Nosler BT gave 3,672 fps and very, very slight head expansion. I considered that to be maximum.
My friend, our data is incredibly close.
What a GREAT cartridge.
Steve Timm
brdeano
New member
Outlaw those look like you got them figured out.
My 50Vmax load is about what your getting. I'm running 28.5gr of '335 under the moly'd 50's for 3600fps in my 1-8"tw 22"er. I worked up to 30gr for 3725fps but it was a little warm in my rifle. At 3600fps the brass lasts forever.
Do/did you post on the old savageshooters forum under the same screenname? I used to be on there a few years back and you seem familiar.
ETA: just seen your post too Steve, it looks like we're all about in the same boat with the charges/speeds.
My 50Vmax load is about what your getting. I'm running 28.5gr of '335 under the moly'd 50's for 3600fps in my 1-8"tw 22"er. I worked up to 30gr for 3725fps but it was a little warm in my rifle. At 3600fps the brass lasts forever.
Do/did you post on the old savageshooters forum under the same screenname? I used to be on there a few years back and you seem familiar.
ETA: just seen your post too Steve, it looks like we're all about in the same boat with the charges/speeds.
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Steve Timm
New member
Originally Posted By: brdeanoSteve, it looks like we're all about in the same boat with the charges/speeds.
Yeah, it's great to see that the velocity is so very similar. I find the .223 to be a wonderfully stable cartridge.
Something I've found that few have mentioned anywhere is velocity extreme spread. The extreme spread and resulting standard deviation (SD) of the parent round, the .223/5.56 is something I've wrestled with for years. It seems that the .223/5.56 commonly shows 20-round extreme spreads in the 35-50 fps range ... and sometimes into the 70 fps range.
The .223 Ackley commonly cuts the extreme spread by one-half to two-thirds. I have shot many, many 20-shot aggregates with the .223 Ackley where the ES was on the order of 12 to 15 fps TOTAL.
That is freaking incredible and proves, at least to my satisfaction, that the .223 Ackely is a much more balanced cartridge than the .223 Remington. Putting it in simple terms, it is my opinion that the .223 Ackley just plain burns powder more efficiently than the parent round. Long live the fabulous .223 Ackley Improved
Steve Timm
PS. The .223 Ackley almost became a commercial round about five years ago. I was at the spearhead of that and am not yet free to talk about it. Needless to say, if the .223 Ackely had become commercial, it would have been a wonderful gift to all hunters. The acts of a bean-counter cost us greatly.
Outlawkyote
New member
Originally Posted By: brdeanoOutlaw those look like you got them figured out.
My 50Vmax load is about what your getting. I'm running 28.5gr of '335 under the moly'd 50's for 3600fps in my 1-8"tw 22"er. I worked up to 30gr for 3725fps but it was a little warm in my rifle. At 3600fps the brass lasts forever.
Do/did you post on the old savageshooters forum under the same screenname? I used to be on there a few years back and you seem familiar.
ETA: just seen your post too Steve, it looks like we're all about in the same boat with the charges/speeds.
LOL, Yes, I am the same Outlawkyote as on Savageshooters. Had my feelings hurt and now Im here. LOL
My 50Vmax load is about what your getting. I'm running 28.5gr of '335 under the moly'd 50's for 3600fps in my 1-8"tw 22"er. I worked up to 30gr for 3725fps but it was a little warm in my rifle. At 3600fps the brass lasts forever.
Do/did you post on the old savageshooters forum under the same screenname? I used to be on there a few years back and you seem familiar.
ETA: just seen your post too Steve, it looks like we're all about in the same boat with the charges/speeds.
LOL, Yes, I am the same Outlawkyote as on Savageshooters. Had my feelings hurt and now Im here. LOL
Outlawkyote
New member
Originally Posted By: Steve Timm
Originally Posted By: Outlawkyote 28gr of H335 behind a 50gr nosler balistic tip. Its getting 3620fps with that load.
The top target was shot with my 223AI with a Shilen 8 twist barrel crowned at 26". The second target is my 14 twist 223AI Shilen barrel crowned at 26" using the recipe above.
For my fireforming loads, I justuse a thrown load of 25gr of H335 behind a 55gr nosler and seated bullets hard into the lands.
Friend Outlaw,
Just so folks know, I wrote an article on the .223 Ackley Improved in January 1997. I shot the rifle and the various loads to absolute exhaustion. I found the comparison between your data and my data to be very interesting. Actually, the comparison puts the "seal of approval" on both your and my work.
You report that your rifle shot the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic with 28.0 grains of H-335 for a MV of 3,620 fps.
Karen's rifle, in the article, has a 22-inch barrel and the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip with 28.5 grains of H-335 gave 3,601 fps and stunning accuracy.
Bumping up to 29.0 grains of H-335 with the 50-grain Nosler BT gave 3,672 fps and very, very slight head expansion. I considered that to be maximum.
My friend, our data is incredibly close.
What a GREAT cartridge.
Steve Timm
As I look at my verticle stringing on my target, maybe I should add a lil more powder and see if I can pull it together a lil tighter?
Originally Posted By: Outlawkyote 28gr of H335 behind a 50gr nosler balistic tip. Its getting 3620fps with that load.
The top target was shot with my 223AI with a Shilen 8 twist barrel crowned at 26". The second target is my 14 twist 223AI Shilen barrel crowned at 26" using the recipe above.
For my fireforming loads, I justuse a thrown load of 25gr of H335 behind a 55gr nosler and seated bullets hard into the lands.
Friend Outlaw,
Just so folks know, I wrote an article on the .223 Ackley Improved in January 1997. I shot the rifle and the various loads to absolute exhaustion. I found the comparison between your data and my data to be very interesting. Actually, the comparison puts the "seal of approval" on both your and my work.
You report that your rifle shot the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic with 28.0 grains of H-335 for a MV of 3,620 fps.
Karen's rifle, in the article, has a 22-inch barrel and the 50-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip with 28.5 grains of H-335 gave 3,601 fps and stunning accuracy.
Bumping up to 29.0 grains of H-335 with the 50-grain Nosler BT gave 3,672 fps and very, very slight head expansion. I considered that to be maximum.
My friend, our data is incredibly close.
What a GREAT cartridge.
Steve Timm
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Well I ended up finding a gunsmith here in town that I felt comfortable with. He is going to ream out and set back my Savage .223 for me. So when I get it back it will be my first Ackley Improved rifle. I have been doing a lot of reading on the .223 ackley cartridge and was wanting to make sure that I understand the fireforming process correctly. As I understand it I should be able use regular .223 loads to fireform brass. Then I just necksize the brass using a .223 Ackley Improved die. I would then be able to start using .223 Ackley Improved load data and go along as normal.
Any information you can give me is much appreciated.
Any information you can give me is much appreciated.
Rustydust
Active member
Hey Daisy
I had quite a bit of R-P brass that I decided to used for fireforming. Just for the heck of it, I loaded 50 rounds of it with 12 grains of Bluedot and a 40 grain bullet. This fireformed well and was fun to shoot. I have a set of .223 AI dies that I have not even used yet, as I have been using a regular .223 Remington Lee collet die to size the necks and it works well for the Ackley version too.
I hope that you like your .223 AI. Sunday this week I had put a different scope on my Savage Ackley and when sighting it in shot a 5 shot group that measured .280". That was with 28.3 grains of H-335 and the 50 grain Nosler BT and a CCI BR primer. They were seated out a ways but I forgot to measure the OL so cannot tell you how long that they were.
Anyway, hope this helps.
I had quite a bit of R-P brass that I decided to used for fireforming. Just for the heck of it, I loaded 50 rounds of it with 12 grains of Bluedot and a 40 grain bullet. This fireformed well and was fun to shoot. I have a set of .223 AI dies that I have not even used yet, as I have been using a regular .223 Remington Lee collet die to size the necks and it works well for the Ackley version too.
I hope that you like your .223 AI. Sunday this week I had put a different scope on my Savage Ackley and when sighting it in shot a 5 shot group that measured .280". That was with 28.3 grains of H-335 and the 50 grain Nosler BT and a CCI BR primer. They were seated out a ways but I forgot to measure the OL so cannot tell you how long that they were.
Anyway, hope this helps.
Hey Outlawkyote,
Your targets and comments (along with Steve Timm's) confirm everything I've read about finding the right combination in all areas to product such fine shootin. As much as I've been tryin, I've been having to use Varget because I haven't located any H335 that I'm told is the hot ticket in a bolt gun .223. I only hope people reading your post are also taking note of the barrel (Shilen) you have on your rifle which I've concluded is probably the finest barrel going for the money. When the time comes to replace any of my barrels, you can bet I'm headin to a Shilen as well simply because if you want the best result, gotta have the best equipment (within reason).
Your targets and comments (along with Steve Timm's) confirm everything I've read about finding the right combination in all areas to product such fine shootin. As much as I've been tryin, I've been having to use Varget because I haven't located any H335 that I'm told is the hot ticket in a bolt gun .223. I only hope people reading your post are also taking note of the barrel (Shilen) you have on your rifle which I've concluded is probably the finest barrel going for the money. When the time comes to replace any of my barrels, you can bet I'm headin to a Shilen as well simply because if you want the best result, gotta have the best equipment (within reason).
Outlawkyote
New member
I always seat the bullet hard into the lands when fireforming, I read that was the way to do it and never questioned it.
Yes, use regular 223 loads for fireforming and afterwords you can start using 223AI loads.
I dont use anything special for powder or special tricks when fireforming because my rifles shoot well enough to use it for most of my hunting and shooting needs. I can spend a few thousand rounds every summer in PD towns so I do a lot of my fireforming there. After the fireforming is done, then I start accurizing my brass for target work.
Something you might notice is that your brass will be slightly shorter after fireforming so, dont trim your brass until after fireforming so it will be more consistant and keeping as much neck length as you can.
Shynloco
If you cant find H335, try some AA2230, its almost the same thing. Im sold on Shilen barrels Here is one of my more recent 22-243 shilen barrels I shot one day. Its a 50gr nosler at 4350fps. (5 shot groups at 100yds shot consecutivly)
Shilen has done well for me
Yes, use regular 223 loads for fireforming and afterwords you can start using 223AI loads.
I dont use anything special for powder or special tricks when fireforming because my rifles shoot well enough to use it for most of my hunting and shooting needs. I can spend a few thousand rounds every summer in PD towns so I do a lot of my fireforming there. After the fireforming is done, then I start accurizing my brass for target work.
Something you might notice is that your brass will be slightly shorter after fireforming so, dont trim your brass until after fireforming so it will be more consistant and keeping as much neck length as you can.
Shynloco
If you cant find H335, try some AA2230, its almost the same thing. Im sold on Shilen barrels Here is one of my more recent 22-243 shilen barrels I shot one day. Its a 50gr nosler at 4350fps. (5 shot groups at 100yds shot consecutivly)
Shilen has done well for me
Well I got my gun back from the gunsmith today. He got it done in just about 2 weeks. Which he told me it would take 3-4 because the Shot Show was in town. So I was really excited to go and pick it up. I am really excited about the rechambering to an Ackley Improved. It is my first one. It was dark when I got home but I had to go out and shoot one round just to take a look at the case when it came out of the chamber. It looks perfect from what I can tell. Looks like he did a good job. Anything I should look for that could be of concern?
I am really excited to get out and fireform some brass so I can get some loads worked up. My Savage was shooting .4-.6" groups consistently so I am anxious to see if it still shoots as good or better than before. Nonetheless I am pumped to have my first Ackley Improved rifle and to start playing around with it.
Thanks to all of you guys for all of your input.
I am really excited to get out and fireform some brass so I can get some loads worked up. My Savage was shooting .4-.6" groups consistently so I am anxious to see if it still shoots as good or better than before. Nonetheless I am pumped to have my first Ackley Improved rifle and to start playing around with it.
Thanks to all of you guys for all of your input.
I have a jug of N133 that I am going to give a try with some 50gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips. What primer would be best? I am not exactly sure which primers are thick cupped and which are not. Is there a chart I can look at that gives you the specs?
Thanks for your input Ackleyman.
I just fireformed about 150 brass today. Looks like they all turned out great and a couple of buddies and I had fun while doing it.
Thanks for your input Ackleyman.
I just fireformed about 150 brass today. Looks like they all turned out great and a couple of buddies and I had fun while doing it.