.223 debate

The M855 round (green tip) is the standard load in the M16A2, M4, and M249. It is a 62 grain FMJBT with a steel penetrator in the nose (the projectile alone is called the SS109, a NATO term). Each NATO country loads this round at a slightly different power level. The steel penetrator allows it to penetrate light to moderate body armor. Multiple strikes (read: full auto or burst) will break down concrete and therefore eventually penetrate it. My experience with cinderblock was observing a stray projectile striking a cinderblock wall inside of a live fire simulator. Generally the mass of the lead weight will assist the steel penetrator penetrate, but the bullet will break apart at the cannelure, causing fragmentation on hard targets. The projectile performs a little different on soft tissue/gelatin. Just thought that I would pass this info along. Your mileage may vary! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
That makes sense, I hadnt researched the "green tip" so I wasnt sure how it had been constructed. I guess I must have been thinking about another type of bullet but now that you've explaind how it is designed it is more understandable to have it made that way then a solid steel core.

I had read a bit about the fragmenting and tumbling of fmj's after they strike tissue while looking for high speed photo's of bullet strikes. I remembering reading somewhere that 1. The rotation of the bullet going through something more dense than air wasnt fast enough to stabilize it. 2. The denser lead rear of the bullet would want to lead the projectile though tissue and while it was going through the target sideways during it's tumble it would cause a good amount of dammage. Sometimes during mid phase of the tumble the round would break at the canlure since the copper is thinest at that area allowing the steel penetrator to go in on direction while the lead and copper jacket would fragment further and fly off at several angles obviously causing more dammage.

I'll look for some pictures because I'm sure they can hep to show what I'm trying to explain. As it's been said "A picture is worth a thousand words".
 
I havent tried posting pictures for quite a while so here goes nothing.

m855.gif

The above picture shows the wound channel for the M855 round

m193frag.jpg

This picture shows the fragmentation of the M193 which is the lighter cousin of the M855 round but I dont think it has the steel penetrator.

Anyway here is a good place to read about bullet tumbling with those rounds. And the page also explains things a lot better than I could.

[edited for spelling]
 
I shoot my rifle at my game warden's place. He had a .17 that when the barrel started to get fouled the bullets would hit the target sideways. At 100 yards.
I was going to ask him to try the moly-fusion, but he traded the gun off. I thought maybe the military guns were either shot out or fouled badly. I had heard the same thing, just did not know if it was true.T.20
 
It can be caused by overstabilization or destabilization. Rigerunner was closest. Have any of you guys heard of "Keyholing"? Take a heavy bullet and fire it from a too slow of twist. Then go out and look at your target. Guess what? You will then know what keyholing is. It can also happen when a bullet comes under the speed of sound. The "shock-wave" that disrupts a bullet as it falls under this speed will also cause it to "tumble." That is exactly why the 1000 yard bechresters are using such hot cartriges as the 6.5/284. It stays beyond the speed of sound out too 1000 yards. That and the fact that it isn't affected by wind as much. The military did some experimenting with bullet/rifling combonations that caused these problems. Suppose they have them fixed now.....
 
The documentation on the M855 and the M193 is impressive. If there was a smooth bore rifle or a bullet specifically made to tumble I'd think it would be well documented also. As for the twist rate / bullet weight ratio, It's hard to believe that the goverment would release these weapons to the field without thorough testing. I think I'll dig some more. Maybe I'll find some Mil-spec's. I doubt anyone has uploaded specs from that era but the libary mite have something. I appreciate all the attention you guy's have given to this thread and if I find out something else I'll kick it up again.
P.S. A 150 catfish ant noth'n. A friend of mine got swallowed by a 1100 lb. Grouper in 700 ft. of water as he jumped feet first out of the diving bell. He was spit out, of corse!
Thanks; Joe
 
Gentlemen, first post on this board. I know that this post is somewhat old, but had to put in my 2¢.

Here's a good page that might explain some of the questions posted: Ammo-Oracle
 
I'll add one thing.

The newer Russian ammo, 5.45 X 39, is structured in such as way that it tumbles in the body. It behaves like a normal bullet on the way to a target.

The mujahadeen in Afghanistan hated it because the bullet would cause horific wounds.
 
I couldn't find it this time but somewhere on www.ammoman.com they have several pics cut out of video that has the .223 shooting though a egg and as soon as the bullet exits the egg it is tumbling up with the tip pointing up. Very nice clear pics, several other calibers shown also.

VS

Ok guy's I found it, but it was hitting a Orange and not the egg.. Check this out.

http://www.ammoman.com/gunshots.html
 
My understanding of the tumbling bullet is that due to Geneva Conventions and the laws of War, we as soldiers are not necessarily being asked to kill the enemy, but to disable them or their equipment from impeding our forward progress with our mission. These laws of war make it a war crime to use a hollow point bullet or a ballistic tip bullet. Hence, the full metal jacket bullets that have little if ever any expansion, and tend to tumble when they hit bone/flesh or equipment, and comply with the laws if war. It does sound crazy, but you could engage a personnel carrier with a 50 cal machine gun(to disable it) but you couldn't use a 120MM smoothbore Heat round to engage a solo soldier walking across the street. I spent 12 of the best years of my life serving my country...and although that makes me no expert, I would just like to pass this info along to maybe help explain the..."tumbling bullet" story. Peace...
 
Blah,bla,bla.yadda,yadda....What I'd like to know is a 223 OK for deer? :eek: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just kiddin'. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Grinr,

Have you lost your mind? :eek: We all know that the .223 is OK for deer! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just kidding. That topic is still being debated on the other thread.
 
I was told in basic, that the rifleing in the barrel is what caused the bullet to tumble. I called my Drill Sargent on this and was told to shut up and ended up trying to push Ft. Jackson to China if you know what I mean:)

chuck
 
This isn't meant to insult any of you in anyway but a note of caution, some of the most outlandish firearms BS I've heard in my life has come from the mouths of those who have served in the military and or law enforcement. There are many in those fields who really don't know or understand firearms and ballistics but will lead you to believe that they do.

Hitting something with a round that tumbles as it exits the barrel would be an exercise in futility. You might as well throw a rock, the accuracy would be much better.

Additionally, a bullet tumbling through the air would have a very poor ability to penetrate anything.

What is interesting is the fact that the 5.56 round wasn't designed to fragment, that was a product of it's construction. When it hits, it does what many bullets do, it tumbles, but because of its construction it breaks into fragments. This fragmentation only happens if the velocity of the bullet is around 2700 fps slower than that and it tends to just go through without fragmenting.

If you closely read, "Blackhawk Down" you'll find that the only person who really was critical of the ablity of the 5.56 round was a Delta operator who was using a CAR 15 with a short barrel. It is likely that the shortness of the barrel and loss of velocity, coupled with the body composition of the enemy and the fact that many of them were on drugs, combined to give this operator problems with stopping the enemy. There doesn't seem to be evidence of the men armed with the 20inch M16s complaining of the same problems.

I didn't make this stuff up and I'm not that smart either but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and while I was there I read the Ammo Oracle on AR15.com. You'll be amazed at the amount of really good information you'll find on that site about the AR15 and the 5.56 round.

Good shooting.
 
Tumble?

No Tumble?

What does it matter? IF ya'll want to think your AR's shoot magic bullets, then fine, go ahead. .223" is a proven round. IF you ever get in a gunfight and find out otherwise call me an idiot.

I personally don't know much about ballistics. But I don't think any engineer would've designed a bullet to "tumble". Rifling and bullet profile have been refined over the years to eliminate tumbling.

Instead of wasting all my time defending my dumb .223", I just switched to .308". I'll never hump it across the Iraqi desert, but at least I can hear the "smack" now when I hit the 300yd metal gongs.
 
Let me try and put this baby to bed. I am a veteran of the current war in Iraq and have 8 years in the USMC, packing an m16a2 the whole time,. The military 5.56 is designed to fly straight and true but the tumbling myth comes from the mis-match of bullets to rate of twist on the early m16's and the fact that the ss109 (green tip) and the m193(55grn) will tumble after as little as 4 inches of flesh.

Hope this helps.
 
I've always wondered if the people making these claims actual believed them or were they just trying to see how much bull they could feed someone. A bullet designed to start tumbling as it left the barrel? Why even design it?
Sounds the same as Bonzai kitty to me.
 
.223 debait? what catfish? how do ya get a hook thru em? does the fish line go down the barrel, or do ya'll muzzle load yer 223s? I stumbled into some flesh a couple times in Nam, 1969, but the shots fixed everything, ya gotta be careful about barrel dribbling.
oh yeah get the shots BEFORE ya go home. tore me all up inside.
 
The year was 1968, the place was Chu Lai, Vietnam. I ran the bulldozer in the garbage dump, my second job was to kill stray dogs that came to the dump to eat, because we had a rabies problem on the base I was told. I shot a few dogs with a M-16 and got to look at the wounds, most took two or MORE hits to the chest area to drop (no head or spine shots because of the rabies). All the wounds I saw were 22 in and just about 22 out, no tumbling.

AWS

A little added info. The year was 1967, the place Taipei, Taiwan. Having some good friends working in the armory at Linkou air station I had a good supply of the then new M-16 ammo. I orderred (from the Embassy Gun Shop) the first .223 bolt action rifle they could get their hands on. It turned out to be a Rem. 600 (never catalogged in .223) it set me back $49.00. I shot ALOT of military ammo at paper at 50 to 600 meters (chinese army range), no tumbling there either. I still shoot that rifle, the rib is gone and the stock shortend and reshaped, it has been my favorite calling rifle for a long time.

AWS
 
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