Bob Tobergte
New member
May kooler heds prevail. We may need sum of you in a kombat situation.
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
223 FMJ designed to tumble (explained)
- Thread starter Rg176bnc
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Longcruise
New member
Originally Posted By: Bob Tobergte May kooler heds prevail. We may need sum of you in a kombat situation.
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
Shucks, I thought you were just kiddin! Here ya go, first pic is the "top" and the second pic is the "bottom"
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
Shucks, I thought you were just kiddin! Here ya go, first pic is the "top" and the second pic is the "bottom"
I have seen excellent results with FMJ's. Shot 4 or 5 of them and not one has ran off. Huge exit holes. It's not what I perfer to use, but when I don't have any of my perfered bullets loaded up I would not think twice about using them. Been shooting the Hornady 68gr match BTHP bullets this year. So far I've seen a little enterence hole and one little exit hole, they don't do nearly the damage of a FMJ but I like the way they fly. Not an ideal yote bullet, but I knew that.
hickerx2
Member
Originally Posted By: Ze StallionLongcruise,
African big game bullets are called "solids" not FMJ because they are Solid through and through. No voids with in it at all.
I gotta call BS on this one.....
Large-caliber "solids" are generally lead-core bullets with very thick jackets designed not to expand. The actual monolithic bullets are a pretty recent invention.
African big game bullets are called "solids" not FMJ because they are Solid through and through. No voids with in it at all.
I gotta call BS on this one.....
Large-caliber "solids" are generally lead-core bullets with very thick jackets designed not to expand. The actual monolithic bullets are a pretty recent invention.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Originally Posted By: hickerx2Originally Posted By: Ze StallionLongcruise,
African big game bullets are called "solids" not FMJ because they are Solid through and through. No voids with in it at all.
I gotta call BS on this one.....
Large-caliber "solids" are generally lead-core bullets with very thick jackets designed not to expand. The actual monolithic bullets are a pretty recent invention.
Actually you are both right.
There are no voids and they are lead core with very heavy jackets.
Jack
African big game bullets are called "solids" not FMJ because they are Solid through and through. No voids with in it at all.
I gotta call BS on this one.....
Large-caliber "solids" are generally lead-core bullets with very thick jackets designed not to expand. The actual monolithic bullets are a pretty recent invention.
Actually you are both right.
There are no voids and they are lead core with very heavy jackets.
Jack
There are some pretty good videos on the internet of people shooting Gel with FMJ from a 223. In one the guys are quite surprised that the bullet enters center mass and exits the top after 6" of travel. I nice arc. No tubling, not fragmenting, etc. They keep after it trying to find one that will brerak apart ot tumble and not a single one does.
In some research papers on this subject there are a few pictures of 223 bullets bent "L" shaped. As they begain their trip up top there was enough force behind them to bend them in the middle.
In street shootings reported by the FBI FMJ and a few other rounds perform quit well at distances under 100 yards. Past that they were hit or miss.
There is a report that names the manufacture of the FMJ with the void at the tip, those that fragmented.
There are just so many things to consider with the 223 that it is no wonder people believe what they do about this round. An example would be shooting 40 gr bullets fast from a 1 in 7 twist barrel. These can come apart even before they hit anything about 10 yards down range.
Bullet construction and materials used, how was the lead core mixed, thickness of the jacket, quality of the bullet manufactured, distance, barrel twist, bullet speed, bones hit, etc. The 223 can be fickeled.
In some research papers on this subject there are a few pictures of 223 bullets bent "L" shaped. As they begain their trip up top there was enough force behind them to bend them in the middle.
In street shootings reported by the FBI FMJ and a few other rounds perform quit well at distances under 100 yards. Past that they were hit or miss.
There is a report that names the manufacture of the FMJ with the void at the tip, those that fragmented.
There are just so many things to consider with the 223 that it is no wonder people believe what they do about this round. An example would be shooting 40 gr bullets fast from a 1 in 7 twist barrel. These can come apart even before they hit anything about 10 yards down range.
Bullet construction and materials used, how was the lead core mixed, thickness of the jacket, quality of the bullet manufactured, distance, barrel twist, bullet speed, bones hit, etc. The 223 can be fickeled.
TNyoteboy
New member
Originally Posted By: spiaailliFisrt, we are not bound to use FMJ and we never signed anything saying we would. Special force teams use hollow points all the time.
As to the 223 tumble. When the first version of the AR came out it had a 1 in 14" twist. At tempuratures aboev 30 degrees the bulle is stable. Below 30 degrees the bullets would keyhole.
Second, anyone that has shot ballistic gel can tell you all bullets regardless os shape or style try to "tumble" as they slow down. Even round balls fired from muzzle loader or cap and ball pistols end up nose pointing down a lot of the time. Many end up nose pointing towards the shooter. The FMJ doesn't have anything up front to resist the tumble so you see it quite often in gel. It is not tumbling as many suppose it is. Often it is only one revolution, as is true with other bullet designs.
As to fragmenting FMJ. There were military FMJ that has air space just under the tip. Hits at high speed cause them to cave in and act as hollow points. Durring one of the wars someone cried foul and quite a bit of research went into finding out why it appeared some groups were using HPs. Most of the very good FMJ available to the public do not have that air space and unless you hit bone they are likely to drill a nice neat hole. If you fine FMJ from a company that does expand buy all of that lot you can.
I have worked 4 Ballistic Wounds Workshops with ATK (Federal, Speer, CCI, Hornady fame) and I can attest to the fact that some bullets will in fact tumble as they slow down travelling through 10% ballistic gellatin. They will swap ends just plain because the rear of the bullet is heavier than the front and wants to continue forward. Seen it too many times.
As to the 223 tumble. When the first version of the AR came out it had a 1 in 14" twist. At tempuratures aboev 30 degrees the bulle is stable. Below 30 degrees the bullets would keyhole.
Second, anyone that has shot ballistic gel can tell you all bullets regardless os shape or style try to "tumble" as they slow down. Even round balls fired from muzzle loader or cap and ball pistols end up nose pointing down a lot of the time. Many end up nose pointing towards the shooter. The FMJ doesn't have anything up front to resist the tumble so you see it quite often in gel. It is not tumbling as many suppose it is. Often it is only one revolution, as is true with other bullet designs.
As to fragmenting FMJ. There were military FMJ that has air space just under the tip. Hits at high speed cause them to cave in and act as hollow points. Durring one of the wars someone cried foul and quite a bit of research went into finding out why it appeared some groups were using HPs. Most of the very good FMJ available to the public do not have that air space and unless you hit bone they are likely to drill a nice neat hole. If you fine FMJ from a company that does expand buy all of that lot you can.
I have worked 4 Ballistic Wounds Workshops with ATK (Federal, Speer, CCI, Hornady fame) and I can attest to the fact that some bullets will in fact tumble as they slow down travelling through 10% ballistic gellatin. They will swap ends just plain because the rear of the bullet is heavier than the front and wants to continue forward. Seen it too many times.
Originally Posted By: LongcruiseOriginally Posted By: Bob Tobergte May kooler heds prevail. We may need sum of you in a kombat situation.
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
Shucks, I thought you were just kiddin! Here ya go, first pic is the "top" and the second pic is the "bottom"
Your pictures are labeled backwards. The rounded surface is the base closest to the powder. The flaten picture is the top or nose and you can see the classic flow of lead around the edges.
I'm still looking for the top of my rownd balls.
Shucks, I thought you were just kiddin! Here ya go, first pic is the "top" and the second pic is the "bottom"
Your pictures are labeled backwards. The rounded surface is the base closest to the powder. The flaten picture is the top or nose and you can see the classic flow of lead around the edges.
Watch this one and then tell me which you would rather be using.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsuu_wE-Wo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsuu_wE-Wo&feature=related
Awesome videos from a practical aspect. Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea what the distance was between the shooter and the shooting gel in that video? You could see there were no obstructions in the gel such as may be encountered in an animal or for that matter a human. Imagine that bullet striking something of far greater density (such as bone)and then you'd REALLY see some damage. But then again, if the bullet struck nothing and just passed through (without hitting a vital organ), that could explain why some folks get runners and others get mush.
I looked for hours and never did find an example of a 223 "tumble" as reported by so many as being a fact. I also couldn't find any real fragmentation examples either. I did see one ot two that looked like a small piece may have came off the tip but that was it. I did find a bunch of videos where people tried repeatably to make it happen though.
I am a bit surprised by the temp cavity at mid point on some of those 223 shots. That's mainly why I posted them. I cannot tell for sure but it looks like that might be the point the bullet flipped nose for tail. The damage is down like the bullet fliped nose down and then the rear of the bullet pointed up ant traveled out. Note ther is no side to side damage they might be pointing to the bullet dropping below subsonic levels.
Regardless performance compared to regular HP in this caliber is pretty darn poor. You wouldn't want to use them on anything bigger than a coyote for sure.
I'd like to find some examples of heavy FMJ in 223 to see if they perform more like the 7.62 rounds. That very well could be the reason the military when to 60 plus grains. I would think the 77 to 90 weights would perform much better but then you have to deal with wind and the rock dropping trajectory past 300 yards. I was a bit surprised to see many of these heavy for caliber bullets perform worse than the 55gr projectiles in the wind. It just reinforces time of flight.
I am a bit surprised by the temp cavity at mid point on some of those 223 shots. That's mainly why I posted them. I cannot tell for sure but it looks like that might be the point the bullet flipped nose for tail. The damage is down like the bullet fliped nose down and then the rear of the bullet pointed up ant traveled out. Note ther is no side to side damage they might be pointing to the bullet dropping below subsonic levels.
Regardless performance compared to regular HP in this caliber is pretty darn poor. You wouldn't want to use them on anything bigger than a coyote for sure.
I'd like to find some examples of heavy FMJ in 223 to see if they perform more like the 7.62 rounds. That very well could be the reason the military when to 60 plus grains. I would think the 77 to 90 weights would perform much better but then you have to deal with wind and the rock dropping trajectory past 300 yards. I was a bit surprised to see many of these heavy for caliber bullets perform worse than the 55gr projectiles in the wind. It just reinforces time of flight.
EagleCreek49
New member
Im not sure thats fact. The second improved M16 we used in Nam which was a great rifle, with the gas powered buffer built into the stock, which helped the gun put out 20 rounds in a little over 2 seconds, the bullet never splintered off when it hit human flesh because i saw lots of dead body's that never was but one exit hole when it came out on the other side, and never saw 2 exit holes and i believe the tiny hole in the point of the full metal brass jacket of the small 22 3 rounds, was made where it would make it start tumbling when it exited the rifles barrel, and when it went into the enemies flesh it caused a tearing of the flesh because of the tumbling effect, and I saw many NVA bodies that the round entered in the upper side of the rib cage, and exited on the other side ribcage, it would tear just about all of that ribcage out including a lot of intestines and still have enough velocity to cut the enemies arm off and keep on going!!! This is coming from a 101st airborne ranger, that was in a lot of firefights during the 11 months and 16 days I spent in Nam, before I was severely wounded Nov. 16, 1969!
William Suter
Well-known member
Are we talking a 223 round here?
GC
Well-known member
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