223 for deer hunting

erschiessen, are you using the 45's in a 223. I tried some and will not use them anymore on coyotes. I read a thread a while ago where a lot of guys like them, but I have had more coyotes rolled only to get up and leave with this cartridge than all others combined I believe. None of them farther than 150 yd. shots. The ones they killed, were in great shape as far no exits or very little damage. I did like it for the ones it killed but I sure didn't for the ones that ran off.
I have been shooting some 55 gr. reloads Mike Granger donated to me and they are absolutely great.
 
Bent barrel, I've lived in montana for six years and I know for sure that it is legal. If you don't beleive me take a look at montana fish & game. It specifically says that there are no caliber limitations during the big game season accept that shotgun must use buckshot or slugs I think this will clear up any question about it's legality.
 
...let me get this straight....

It's OK for military forces around the globe to stake their lives on a .223 against 150-200+ lb armed soldiers.....

But if you're going into the woods, this same CALIBER (NOT THE SAME BULLET...) is TOTALLY INADEQUATE...ME THINKS NOT!

Countless game has been killed with the .223 at modest ranges.

You people who snub the .22 centerfires as nothing but varmint rifles, while in the same breath singing praises to the .243/6mm class are singing an old song.

I certainly do not recommend that the .22 centerfires are "ideal" deer rounds. I do not advise anyone to shoot deer with "varmint bullets" (i.e. highly frangible bullets).

However, the "deer bullets" that are available for .22 centerfire cartridges are efficient killers as long as: shot placement is TOP PRIORITY!

I'd hate to think that someone is so ignorant to say that the .223 is TOTALLY INADEQUATE...A .30-06 is inadequate too....IF YOU CAN'T DELIVER A LETHAL/ACCURATE SHOT.

'nuff sed
 
Not exactly a relevant comparison. In accordance with the Geneva Convention, military ammo is intended to wound, not kill. From a tactical viewpoint, it is more desirable to wound. A killed soldier removes one person from combat. A wounded soldier removes 3, the one wounded plus 2 to make pickup.

When hunting the desire is a quick, humane kill with a single shot. Entirely different goal.
 
Redfrog,
Yup. The Wally World $11.99 USD for a box of 40 Winchester .223 45gr JHP Varmint Loads.

The smaller coyote ran for 30 yds, and had passthrough - small exit hole. The bigger one dropped in it's tracks, no exit.
 
Caninethumper,
I took your suggestion and went to Montana's FWP page and looked at the firearm regulations. You restated what I said, there is no caliber limit, specifically. My post is a no spin zone so I will give the complete regulation as can be found on Montana's FWP website.

Firearms
Caliber: There is no caliber limitation during the general big game hunting season (except as specified under shotgun) for the taking of big game animals in Montana. Match the caliber and firearm to the size of the animal hunted.
The use of poisonous, explosive, or deleterious substances on or in any bullet or projectile is prohibited.
Shotgun: Hunters are prohibited from shooting deer or elk with shotguns, except with lead loads of 0 buck or larger, or rifled slugs.
Restrictions for muzzleloader and traditional handgun areas only:

I copied and pasted this directly from their website. As anyone can see, it is a regulation to match the caliber and size of firearm to the animal hunted. While one may choose to argue that there is no minimum caliber I would argue that through ambiguous blanket statements (match caliber to game size)they have set a minimum without specifically saying what it is. This covers all big game without having to list a caliber for each animal. While we can have a lengthy arguement about .223 for deer being big enough most wouldn't claim it is big enough for moose. I believe the FWP has an opinion on minimum caliber for each animal and will act on that opinion. http://fwp.state.mt.us/ is Montana's FWP website if anyone would like to go look for themselves. Hope this helps. Maybe Mike Granger would know a game warden that would like to weigh in on this.
 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Owww.Looks like I was drinkin'/babblin' again.I don't think I ever said a 223 was "totally inadequate",just that it is certanly not the best choice for deer.In capable and disciplined hands and with a perfect shot I'm sure it does just fine.In the real world where I hunt though,most deer don't pose for a headshot.And yea,even a 30-06 ain't much good to ya if'n ya don't put the bullet where it belongs.I'll shut up now.
 
No!
keep the small stuff for the small stuff
I have entertained tha idea of using my 22-250 for deer but have since given that idea up.
good luck.
 
Preachim,

First check you local fish and game laws. If you live in Tn this is a mute question because you must use a 24 cal or larger. If you are in Ohio I think (I am not sure I am sure someone will correct me) it is illeagle to hunt deer with a rifle. In Ga a 223 would be legal but may not be your best choice. What range are you hunting at? If you are expecting to see deer from 30 yards and closer you amy get more satifaction from using a bow. A little father than that you amy want to use a shot gun (check you local state regs for ammo requirments). I am not going to get into the debate of wether or not it will kill a deer. It will. So will every other caliber out there. My personall choice is a .308. I get good range and goo kills. None so far have ran more than 30 yards and 2 out of 3 drop on the spot. But those have to do more with bullet placement than caliber. You may even try a muzzel loader if your state allow's it. They can be alot of fun and with a ML or a bow you normally get more hunting time than the rifle hunters do.
 
The latest issue of Shooting Times has an article on the .223 WSSM, and ....(here we go again) the quarry was (gulp....) whitetail deer in Arkansas.

For those who don't subscribe, here are some tidbits from the management hunt (with Winchesters CXP2 64 grain PowerPoint):

"took a total of 13 deer....including one 207 pound trophy buck that went down at 125 yards. All were one-shot fatalities. All fell within the same distance of initial point of impact, as I would have anticipated with similar shot placement from a .30-30, 7mm-08, or similar standard deer cartridge."

"Typically, bullets did not exit..."

On an approaching deer shot at the base of the neck at 65 yards, "the exit wound was more than three inches in diameter..."

On a large doe from 75 yards quartering away shot, "no exit, but the collapse of the expansion shock cavity expelled lung tissue and internal organ debris more than 10 feet back out the entrance wound toward my position".

They also mentioned the .243 WSSM will be available in a 55 grain Ballistic Silvertip "at a screaming 4060 fps...."

Just thought I'd throw some "wood on the fire".
 
Blackfoot, Just to clarify, the cartridge used on the deer was a 223WSSM, correct?
Did they give any tech info on the cartridge?
Any idea of the rifle used?
That sounds like it got the job done.
 
This info is from the Shooting Times March 2003 issue regarding the .223 WSSM:

case length: 1.67"; Will be offered in Supreme line with a 55 grain Ballistic Silvertip at a nominal 3850 fps muzzle velocity, and in the Super-X line with a 55 grain Pointed Soft Point at 3850 fps, or a 64 grain PowerPoint at 3600 fps.
(compare that to .22-250 loading with 55 grain bullet at 3650 fps, and .223 Rem PowerPoint 64 grain at 3090 fps).

Energy (55 grain) of 1810 ft-lb at the muzzle.

OK...so we got a 55 grain bullet moving at 3850 fps (muzzle) and generating 1810 ft-lb (muzzle).

According to Remington's ballistic table....

That means that this hot rod is generating more or nearly the same energy (i.e. knockdown power) as....beware there are some "real deer cartridges"......250 Savage (1765 ft-lb); .257 Roberts (1824 ft-lb); ...and OH MY IS THIS GONNA BEND SOME NOSES OUT OF SHAPE .30-.30 170 grain (1827 ft-lb); 7.62 x 39 (1552 ft-lbs); .35 Rem 150 grain (1762 ft-lb); .44 Rem Mag (1650 ft-lb)..and now for the coup de grace....45-70 Gov't 405 grain (1590 ft-lb).

Now someone please stand up and tell me THOSE are not "REAL DEER CALIBERS!"

-blackfoot
 
It's also not simply a matter of enery. The 220 Swift has a bunch of energy, but isn't a good choice for many things, such as elk. Why not? The mass and construction of the bullet. Does no good to have 2 tons of energy if gets used up in the first inch of animal. Has to penetrate enough to do the job.
 
I all ways get a kick out of these typs of post. Thank god we all have our own opinions.

The first thing I look at is how much dose one know about guns, and the bullistics also energy of the bullest that they are shooting. Personally in my own opinion If I have to ask how the efictiveness of that round. The answer is it is too small.

I have shot 3 deer with the .223. And all 3 of those deer droped in there tracks. All of them were shot in the neck. The farthest one was about 130 yards.

It all boils down to how much you have shot the gun. How comfortable you are with that gun. And also using the correct bullet for the animal.

Now don't get me wrong! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I all ways bring the guns that is suitable for the animal that I'm hunting that day. I normally try to go higher in the calibers than what is needed. But some times you need to use what is at hand( as long is it's leagle.)

I would not recomend the .223 as a primary deer hunting gun. But if it is all you have and its leagle. And you are comfortable with it. Well by all means go out and use it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
The current issue of Rifle Shooter has an article by Jon R. Sundra. He went on a product-test hunt for deer with a bunch of others last fall using the .223 WSSM. You might want to read it.

Pay attention to the final paragraph.
 
How much energy does a 600gr. arrow leaving the rest at 300fps generate at 30 yds.? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
grinr, the answer is irrelevant to this discussion. Bullets and arrows do not kill by the same means. Simple energy comparisons are meaningless.
 
It's also not simply a matter of enery. The 220 Swift has a bunch of energy, but isn't a good choice for many things, such as elk. Why not? The mass and construction of the bullet. Does no good to have 2 tons of energy if gets used up in the first inch of animal. Has to penetrate enough to do the job.

--------------------
My point exactly Stu.Take it easy,I'm on your side here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
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