223 for deer hunting

Gotcha. You even managed to use the exact example I had in mind and almost posted, but decided to wait: The 22 Swift and elk. Good choice or not? Explain /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It might surprise you have people I've had over the years make a post like your first one, but from the other side. They wanted to make the case than since an arrow has very little energy compared to a high-velocity 22 bullet there shouldn't be any question as to the bullets effectiveness.
 
Explain /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ?grinr....grinning /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif My last name is Green, aka grinner.green guy grinning /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Guess you have'nt noticed I use /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif at the end of all of my posts.I would add /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif to my signature,but it looks too complicated for a puter dummy like me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
my 2 cents i have a freind that is recoil shy and cant hit the side of a barn with mt 257wby but he kills deer every year with 223 55 bonded bear claw.i think the most was about 185yds the buck dressed at about 170 .the military uses it on 200 pd men at 200 yds plus why would it not work on 200pd deer?i dont agree with head shots a bad shot there would mean starving to death with broke jaw .neck or lungs would be my way
 
DONOVAN Just to let you know this military doesn't use the round to kill. They use it to wound. By wounding 1 guy, it will take 1 to 2 more to get him out of there. If you kill the guy The others will just run by and keep coming at you. So do you want to kill 1, or take 2 maybe 3 out by wounding one. My vote is for the later one.

Now I thought when out deer hunting you want to kill the deer asap. To be humaine, that's just me though.
 
cougerbait i use a 257wby like i said. but a 223 will work if that is your choice i know so have witnesed with my own eyes and it kills them asap
 
DONOVAN just saying that the military doesn't use them to kill!!!

I have killed 3 deer with the 223. Two of them where head shots and droped like a bag of rocks. 1 took three shots in the chest. all good shots. that tells me too small. I just wouldn't want the average hunter out useing it. it is a little on the small side. I would only use it if I had to. thats all.
 
The beauty is in the eye of the beholder! The facts that remain is another story to tell I reckon. The .223 is NOT in the same weight class as the .308 or the 30-06 caliber, this we know as fact. However the .223 with the proper weight bullet as well as construction is ample for whitetail deer.

I myself would never venture into a money hunt out of state carrying a .223 after a trophy buck, the years and roads I have traveled have taught me to keep as much of the odds in my favor.

Man incidentaly is never going to be as tough to kill as a wild deer in the field or woods. I know some of you remember the famous 30 caliber semi-auto Carbine that was barely enough to kill rats behind the barn. It killed men none the less even better. My deer gun of lately is my featherweight 25-06 in a model 70 Winchester, just a real fun gun.
 
Originally posted by preachim:
[qb]I was wondering if the 223 would be ok to use deer hunting. I use 50 grain Winchester ballistic silvertips.[/qb]
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I just have a couple of things to say. I would not use the ballistic silvertip. That is made for varmints. Remember using a small cal. like a .224 penetration is a must. Use a well constructed bullet like the Barns X-Bullet, Nosler partition or the Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. I shoot the X-bullet myself and have taken 4 shots and harvested 4 deer. All shots where placed through the vitals 150 yards and less. "there are more animals lost due to poor shot placement than due to lack of caliber" Good luck to you and safe hunting.

MIVB
 
I have used 223's for several years with nothing but great results. My personal preference is 45-70 but I tend to change calibers quite often. The 223 for me is quite a wonderful round. Not a lot of noise,recoil, or weight in the gun. It can make a long day in the field enjoyable. Everybody has thier own caliber of choice. Mine is 45-70 but I would not fault anyone for their choice.
JM2CW
 
Some examples:

I shot a doe (maybe weighed 70 lbs) in the neck with my 22-250. She was looking right at me and I put the bullet dead center in the middle of her neck (60ish yards). I was using a ballistic tip Win Sup 55gr. The bullet didn't exit and you can imagine how thin her neck was! The bullet did a ton of damage though and she died real quick, but no penetration.

I shot a big feral hog boar in the shoulder with a 55gr Rem PSP (65ish yards). No blood, no boar. Big mistake on shot placement! I was so pissed at myself for being that foolish knowing that boar have a tough shield on their shoulders and it was inhumane for me to not make a careful head shot. Even though it was a doft point, it didn't penetrate enough. The next day I killed a 100lber w/ a head shot, he died before he hit the ground (40ish yards).

I had a friend witness a friend of his shoot a whitetail buck with a 22-250 HP. He shot him in the shoulder with the first shot, it ran 300 yards and laid down. They got up to it and it was still alive. He shot it again in the shoulder and it was still alive. Put the next one in his neck or head (can't remember) and killed it. Upon examining the deer, no vitals were hit! No penetration. Very bad event.

I know a guy in the Panhandle of Texas that uses a 22-250 w/ 55gr PMC SP and kills near 300 lb mule deer with it each year, shooting for the lungs. He says they drop.

The point of all this is piggy backing on what has already been said.

Shot placement, and bullet choice!

I personally do not use BTs or HPs in my 22-250 anymore because I know that a good soft point will do anything those bullets will do, and are better for bigger game. I will continue to shoot hogs with my 22-250, but I will not be shooting at the shoulder. In the ear is my choice. I also shoot doe with it, careful head or neck shots only. Though I do feel very confident that a double lung shot would be fine.

For bucks I use my .270 and I would not shoot a hog with my 22-250 unless it was a slam dunk shot.

In closing: Don't use the ballistic tips on deer and be real careful/smart on your aim.
 
I think the key here is that the "SHOOTER" is the answer. If the shooter is capable enough, Yup, its gun enough. Heck, a 22 long rifle will kill deer. There isn't no doubt. NONE AT ALL. The main question, when put to a state to make it a law, they have to consider "Joe" hunter, who only gets out once a year, and doesn't even bother sighting his gun in. What caliber is suitable for this guy? WHICH CALIBER IS FAIR TO THE DEER? Simple answer for a simple question.
 
Like SBE I have killed more deer with a 223 than any other rifle I have hunted with, More than 10 easy. All have been with a 55 grn soft point. That was my first deer rifle was a ruger#1 in 223. I plan on deer hunting with my AR this year.

THe problem I see here is that nearly all the people that are saying HELL NO dont use a 223 for deer live some where the deer actually weigh more than 100 pounds. YOu cant compare a deer in canada or montana to a deer in East Texas its that simple!!! I have killed deer just as fast with a 25-06 as I have with a 223. Not saying its the best deer round for someone with only one rifle but its plenty good enuff for me to hunt a 100 pound east texas white tail at 100 yards and closer!!! And I will most likely let my son kill his first deer with the same rifle!! I wish I had a box of ammo for every deer I know of that was killed with a 223 I'd never have to buy again...
 
Great topic and everyone has a good attitude twards the conversation. I will give some personal test results to maybe shed some light on this .223 issue. First let me address the .223 for military and only shooting to wound. This is a correct statement in theory but it has nothing to do with the terminal effect of the round. Law enforcement use the same round and we (they) do not shoot to wound anyone. Neutralizing the threat is the objective. I resently did some testing using the Barnes 53 grain XLC and how it would due under less than ideal conditions.

Results; We first used a potted plant, 6 inches in diameter, filled with normal dirst from where we were shooting. At 100 yards, with a velocity of 3385 15 FT from the barrel, the round passed through the plant and had almost no deviation from point of aim.

Second test; using a vehicle wind shield and a water mellon, the bullet passed throught the winshield and cut the water mellon in half. Again the test was at 100 yards.

Some bullets are bonded so that they are able to pass through a solid object but open when under hydraulic pressure to create a major cavity(tissue damage) and cause even more hydraulic shock to other tissue.

By the way...this round was used to harvest a deer at 260 yards. Shot was placed behind the front legs in the "kill zone" and the results were great penetration and the bullet opened to create a massive wound cavity which dropped the animal on the spot. The nice thing about low recoil cartridges is that if a follow up shot is needed then your sight picture is probably still right on.

In the past...I would agree that the .223 had no place in the big game area but with new bullet design and faster burning powder, that's just not the case anymore. Technology has brought the round to where the 25-06 or the .257 Weatherby were 5 years ago or so.

The guy who started this post had a great question that deserved the attention to detail that has been provided but I think everyone will agree that it's not just the caliber or rifle, it's the entire shooting package...hunter experience included. Just my thoughts and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
 
Shot placement and being familiar with your weapon. I love my .223 and have killed deer (mule deer in New Mexico) with it. I have no doubt that I could kill almost any critter that breathes with it. One reason: I have total faith in my gun. I would however have to choose my shots carefully. I do admit that most of my big game hunting is done with a .300 win mag. The .223 is not the best choice for large game, but it the right hands and right loads it will do just fine.
Just remember: FEAR THE MAN WHO OWNS ONLY ONE GUN FOR HE SURELY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT.
 
Originally posted by Stu Farish:
[qb]Not exactly a relevant comparison. In accordance with the Geneva Convention, military ammo is intended to wound, not kill. From a tactical viewpoint, it is more desirable to wound. A killed soldier removes one person from combat. A wounded soldier removes 3, the one wounded plus 2 to make pickup.

When hunting the desire is a quick, humane kill with a single shot. Entirely different goal.[/qb]
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Where did you get that info? Any enemy we have ever shot at, don't play by the same rules we do. They wont run into a town square to save a wounded comrade,they will blow his brains out. No military ammo was ever designed to wound. Someone just made that up one day. FMJ will blow the hell out of a battle helmet at 500 meters and blow through body armour. And as far as the convention,no one ever follows that but us(sometimes). They shot at choppers(med lift) and paratroopers on the way down all the time. jerryboy
 
Well, that was what they taught me in the military. I suppose it could be wrong, but in 1980 it was what we were told.
 
Well, if oy uthink about it,the geneva convention requires ammo to kill humanely. Frangable bullets will not do it as FMJ will. On the battle field,we aren't dealing with soft skinned coyotes or deer. The ammo needed to meet certain specs. The only round to do it was FMJ. A tap round is just a V-max with moly on it. No way will it penetrate a helmet(at 500). Most quick kill varmint/game bullets will blow up on a mud claud at 200. There are gelitin tests on ar15 ammo faqs.
The wound ballistics are pretty much the same.
FMJ has a different design than our varmint bullets. They are solid based and yaw upon impact or shortly thereafter.The forward momentum of the bullet,when it hits,is upset and the weight of the rear of the bullet takes over,turning the buller rear first.Usually by the time it travels sideways,the cannalure causes the bullet to fragment.As deadly as a V-max on a yote. They pretty much do the same thing on bigger targets. The reason we get blowthroughs on coyotes,(IMHO) is there isn't enough coyote to yaw the bullet well. I have had one case where the 55 fmj yawed in a coyote.He did live,but not for long. I found them with holes the size of both my fists. I don't use FMJ for game but I have done it.Some yawed after hitting bone,others passed through without hitting anything hard enough to upset the bullet enough to yaw.IE,passthroughs.
The FMJ was designed to penetrate 10 inches of tissue.This giving it the le-way to go through body armour,then yaw.They do just that. Wars nowadays are heavy metal vs heavy metal.
game bullets wont cut it. Heres a cool link.
ballistic performance
Heres the specs for the round;
Have a 20 round magazine.
Weigh less than 6 pounds loaded.
Have selective fire capability.
Fire a round able to penetrate a standard steel helmet, body armor or 3.4mm-thick steel plate out to 500 meters. ***
Neat snippit from military records;

On 16 June 1962, one platoon from the 340 Ranger Company was on an operation...and contacted three armed Viet Cong in heavily forested jungle. Two VC had carbines, grenades, mines and one had a sub-machinegun. At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an AR-15 full automatic hitting one Viet Cong with three rounds in the first burst. One round in the head took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took it completely off too. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole about five inches in diameter...it can be assumed that any one of the three wounds would have caused death.
THat was a report filed by officers in SE Asia.
I learn every day. I love this hobby.
If I think further; If I was being attacked by a gang of crazy enemy,I want as much metal in the air and as fast as I can. No time for performance bullets. I want to be able to punch vests,steele,jeeps,APCs,and enemy bodies deep enough where they will surely die. No hunting bullet I ever heard of will even come close to that. Great forum you have here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif just my 02. jerryboy
 
The topic that never dies 223 and deer.I will state again that I have used a 223 with trophy bond bear claws for the last few seasons. Why, I have a $3500+ 223 rifle which I love and shoot all year around and see no need to buy another gun for use a few days a year to chase a 150lb deer here.The biggest buck I have see here in 20 years weight 180lbs dressed.The last 3 I killled were 150-170lbs dressed all mature big bucks.All dead in 20 yards or less at ranges to 75- 150 yards.All bullets came out the back side leaveing a nice exit wound and heavy blood trail.If it was not working for me I would be using something else as I am a hunting nut and spent several days a week all year out hunting from deer season to praire dogs I am out doing it and having a great time at it.If a guy does not want to use a 223 no problem for me just use what makes a guy feel good.A 223 works for me and I am not out wounding and loseing deer so that should not bother anyone else how I kill my deer.Good hunting for everyone it's time for me to step out the back door and head out to the woods with my bow and do some hunting.
 
Jerry,

Your post fits in well with my previous post and test results. This has been a hot topic and everybody has there own opinions. The problem I see with info. is that to many people are still thinking in old school technology. It has definatly been interesting to hear all the views but as we know.....223 is one of the prefered rounds in the counter sniper relm so if they trust it to eliminate a threat that is shooting back then a deer doesn't have a chance!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 


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