25-06 Ballistics Questions

CalCoyote

CalCoyote

Member
I am at a cross roads and need some sage advice. I am looking at purchasing a 25-06 to replace my 7mm magnum.

I have owned 3 different 7mm magnum rifles over the last 20 years, and I have shot several deer and a few antelope with them. Without question, the 7mm mag is a VERY effective round for deer sized game. I have never lost an animal. So if the 7mm is so good why have I sold mine? Here is my problem:

I don’t like strong recoil (simple as that). I spend all this precious money on a 7mm and an expensive scope and then pack it away in the gun safe ALL year and only take it out a couple of weeks before deer season.

I love my little 223 and use it for my coyote calling. It has performed great with little muzzle blast and virtually no recoil. I take it to the range and shoot a bunch of practice rounds through it because it is a joy to shoot, but I don’t want to use it for deer.

With regard to the 25-06, here are my questions:

I want to purchase a light weight short barrel rifle that is easy to carry when hiking. How does a 25-06 perform with a 20 inch barrel (will I lose significant muzzle velocity)?

Will having a 20 inch barrel in the 25-06 create excessive muzzle blast (I realize different powders burn at different rates)?

If I am shooting a 85 grain bullet through 25-06 that weighs 6 ½ lbs (not including scope) won’t the recoil still be significantly less than my8 lb 7mm mag using a 150 grain bullet?

My 223 accurately shoots a wide range of different weights and brands of ammo. It is not fussy. Will the 25-06 shoot the 85gr coyote load and 120gr big game load with only a minor tuning of the scope?

Has anybody had trouble with deer sized game running away after a solid hit in the vitals with the 25-06?

It is my idea that if I had a more user friendly deer rifle I would also take it out a few times a year for coyotes. It would never replace my 223 as a coyote load but would give me more flexibility. If I liked the lightweight 25-06 I would then consider replacing my 223 with another 223 of the same model as the 25-06. I could put the same model of scope on both and hopefully the feel would be the same on both, thereby increasing my proficiency. Good idea or bad idea?

Please give me your opinions.

Thanks,

CalCoyote
 
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calcoyote...sound's to me like your on the right track...can't help ya on the 20"barell...like yourself i'm not a fan of hard recoiling rifle's...i have only loaded 100 grainer's...no kill's yet..to me a 100 grainer should work on deer & serve it's purpose as a back up coyote round..that way i have the same zero..doesn't mean i'm right just the way i think...good luck !!
 
One option for the 7 mag is to get it ported. My friends 7mm Stw feels much like my 280 Rem mountain rifle after being ported. Very light recoil.

As for the 25-06 it's got low recoil impulses compared to the 7 mag. It also thrives on barrels in the 24 to 26 inch range. For shorter barreled rifles I'd look closely at the 257 Roberts. Durn near as fast as a 25-06 and for some reason works better in shorter barrels.
 
Bob nailed it. If ou are wanting a quarter bore in a short barrel, go with the 257 Roberts. The 25 is absolutely capable of the task you are asking it, but no need in in the long action with the short barrel. I carried a 25-06 for about 5 years once on everything I hunted. It will put the slam on a coyote. Rather than using two different bullet weights I used 100 grain partitions and100 grain ballistic tips in mine. Got 3400 fps from both and they both printed to the same POI. Used the Partitions on deer with astounding results and the BT's on everything else.
 
Unless you are shooting deer at very long distances, I would avoid the 100 grain Nosler BT. It shot very accurately in my .25-06, but gave very poor penetration at about 200 yards, with hits involving bone. The deer was going downhill on one ridge and I was on the next. The bullet hit the shoulderblade and never exited. The deer went down and I had to finish it off with a shot to the head, as it raised it's head from the bushes. The second shot took it under the eye and never exited, either.
 
Bob,

I found a photo that shows the 25/06 and 257 Roberts side by side. Yes you are correct. The 257 is quite a bit shorter. It looks like the 257 Roberts would require the owner to be a reloader it he wanted to use it for Coyotes. You can't purchase anything smaller than 117gr over the counter. But I would assume that a 100gr Nosler would not get too much of an argument from the coyotes.

There is something new I have learned in all of this. I have been reading and discovered that many of your newer magnum cartidges (7mm RUM, 300 WSM etc)need a barrel length of at least 24" and preferably 26". An article that I read says that when you drop down to a 22 or 20 inch barrel, these ultra magnum cartridges lose their advantage.

Does this mean that these newer ultra magnum cartridges are using a slower burning powder?
 
ive got a 25-06 tikka and have 2 loads i have settled on, a 75gr sierra for coyotes and a 100gr sierra for deer/antelope/etc. my gun just didnt like the barnes, it shoots sierras much better. though i havent shot a deer with it yet, i will be using it some this season and have full confidence it will drop a deer with the 100gr gamekings.

i would say that it sounds like a good round for your purposes.

oh and the recoil is less than my 7mm rem mag. just wish it shot as good (my 7mmRM is a tack driver!).
 
I regularly carry either my Savage 25-06 or my Browning 25 wssm in the deer woods. Shot a management 6 point last season with the 25 wssm using 120 gr Sierra Gameking HPBT. Shot was about 180 yards and hit him like a sledge hammer. The Browning is a dream to carry and has very mild recoil. I would not really consider the 25 wssm though unless you are prepared to buy a large quantity of brass and reload. I use 85 grain NBT for long range predator duty in this gun. If I'm not mistaken the 25 wssm and 25-06 are pretty much identical ballisticly, the 25 wssm being the shorter, lighter of the two rifles.
 
lanole,

After I did this post I got to reading up on the 25 wssm. The goal being to find a hot shooting round that I could shorten the barrel down to 20" and not take a huge hit in performance. I found several places on the internet where people are shooting the 25 wssm with a 20" barrel.

You did hit the nail on the head with the main problem being a HUGE lack of availiability of factory ammo. At this time Winchester is the only company manufacturing ammo for it that I have found and it costs you $1.35 everytime you pull the trigger. That scares me worse than the recoil of my 7mm mag.

I guess my next step is to research how the 243 performs through a 20 inch barrel.

CalCoyote
 
If I were to go the route of the short barrel, lightweight carry all day hunting rifle, I would look at the 243, 257, 260, 7-08 or 308.

The 243 with a 20" barrel works extremely well, I shortened a youth model Rem 700 down to 18" for a youngster and his first kill with that rifle was last season on a rather nice mulie.
 
I have a Model 70 25-06 and it is most definitely my go-to rifle. I used to run 100 grain Ballistic Tips in it, and had excellent success with deer and antelope, even at long range. Went through both shoulders of an antelope at over 300 yards. However I have bumped up to 115 grain Ballistic Tips. Accuracy is even better, speed is very good, and the extra weight will help both penetration and doping the wind. As stated above, you may be better off with a Roberts. You might have trouble finding anything shorter than a 24" barrel on a 25-06, certainly anything shorter than that. Either one will be a honey. Good luck.
 
Tikka T3 in 25/06 has a 22 7/8 inch barrel, wood stock is 6 pounds 10 oz. the lite with a Synthetic stock is 6 pounds 3 oz.
 
Samh

WoW. I looked at the Tikka T3 on their website. 6lbs 3oz is very impressive. I have heard good things about the Tikka but have never fired one. Do you own one? If so, how would you describe the general quality and feel of the firearm , like a Win, Rem, Ruger, Savage?? Also, I wish they had the overall length posted on their website. They did not include that specification in their detail


Multistage

I looked at the 257 Roberts and the Rem 260. Both of these are great rounds but the issue is finding one of the major manufactuers that make them. If you want one of these calibers you have most likely have to buy a rifle and then have it rechambered. I am sure a deer would'nt object to being shot with a 257 Roberts, but the 25-06 with a 22 inch barrel or a 243 with a 20 inch barrel seem to have a lot more options when it comes to factory ammo.


Calcoyote
 
I have 2 rifles that I hunt deer and larger with, one is a 25-06 Weatherby ultra light and the other is a 25-06 Tikka T3 Stainless with fiberglass-reinforced polymer stock. They both shoot good, they both are light but the Tikka has noticeably more recoil. I started using this cartridge when it was a wildcat and haven't hunted with anything sense; I strongly recommend this cartridge for hunting.
 
Quote:
I looked at the Tikka T3 on their website. 6lbs 3oz is very impressive. I have heard good things about the Tikka but have never fired one. Do you own one? If so, how would you describe the general quality and feel of the firearm , like a Win, Rem, Ruger, Savage?? Also, I wish they had the overall length posted on their website. They did not include that specification in their detail
Calcoyote



Calcoyote,

I have a Tikka T-3, in 223 Rem, and a Tikka M695, in 25-06.
As to the quality of Tikka, relative to "Win, Rem, Ruger,
Savage ?", I would put my Tikka rifles up against any of
these brands, if fit, finish, reliability, and accuracy.
I own Remington, Browning, Savage, Howa, and Tikka rifles,
and have owned Ruger, and Winchester, rifles. Tikka
rifles have the smoothest action, and the sweetest
triggers, of any of these factory brands. Accuracy wise,
the M695, is in a dead heat, with a Savage Model 16,
which I have re-barreled with a custom 6mm Rem barrel,
for my most accurate rifle. The T-3, is no slouch either,
in the accuracy department. As to the 22 7/16" barrels,
just stick with faster powders, and the loss of velocity
is a non issue. I am getting 3300 fps, out of the 25-06,
with 100 gr. TSX bullets.

Squeeze
 
Squeeze:

Great info on the Tikka. The responses from this thread have helped me SO much. It is now becoming obvious to me that for my needs the two best choices are either:

Tikka T3 Lite synthetic chambered for the 25/06
6lb 3oz and 22 1/2 barrel.

OR

Savage Synthetic chambered for the 243
6lbs 8 oz (cut the barrel down to 20" and recrown)

Two of the short action cartridges I researched let me a bit confused. I read several rave reviews on the 25 WSSM and the 260 Rem. Both of these sound like strong cartridges that would have been great alternatives to the longer action 25-06. But virtually no one (other than Browning) makes them. Why were they not a bigger success?

These last couple of days have been SUCH and education for me. Up until know I never knew that many magnum cartridges require the longer barrels to achieve their desired performance. Whereas, some of the more normal performing rounds can be shot through a shorter barrel with only a small decrease in performance. This changes my opinion of some of the belted magnums (for some functions). Up until now, I always thought more was better. But now I realize that the magnum round is not always the answer.


Calcoyote
 
CalCoyote,

The Savage Weather Warrior Series(Model 16), has a 22"
barrel for 243 Win. I would not mess with that barrel, if
you go Savage. Here is my take on your choices, and
remember these are "my" choices. If I want a factory
chambered rifle, that I just want to scope, shoot itty bitty
groups, and hunt, it is a Tikka. No muss, no fuss, just
adjust the trigger(and most don't even have to do that), get
a set of Warne Maxima Groove Series rings for Tikka, mount
the scope, and start shooting. If I want a rifle, that I
know I want to make into a different cartridge, or
re-barrel, some day, I go with Savage. They are simple to
re-barrel, and have a lot of after market parts, to make
into a seriously sweet shooting rifle. I am not a fan of
the Accu-trigger, but many are. I "fix" mine, or replace
them, but remember I buy Savages as project guns, that I can
work on. As an example, I purchased a Savage
Model 16(ss/synthetic), in 22-250 Rem. It shot well enough,
but I wanted a 6mm something, and the synthetic stock was
pretty floppy. So I had a 24" magnum taper SS 6mm barrel,
chambered in 6mm Rem. made, and installed it myself,
with a new B&C Duramax stock. I "doctored" up the
Accu-trigger, and now I have a "semi-custom" rifle that
shoots some pretty impressive groups. The 6mm Rem chambered
factory rifles are pretty limited, and with this approach,
I got exactly what I wanted. This is Savage's strong
suite, IMHO. They make good out of the box rifles, accuracy
wise, but after that, Tikka kicks their butts, in fit,
finish, trigger, and over all looks, if you like Euro
styled rifles. Like I said, these are "my" choices, given
my subjectivity. You may have different criteria in
your choices, but given the two you have listed, I see
a win win decision here, other than don't cut down
the Savage barrel. The 243 Win, will like two more inches
of barrel to work with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Squeeze
 
Squeeze,

Thanks for your opinions on this. When I buy a rifle I don't feel like I need to "reinvent the wheel" so, if I can find someone that has already done what I am intending to do, I can benefit from their expierience.

If I went the 243 route, why not whack the two inches off the barrel? From what I have read, I would only lose 60-70fps (depending on which powder I was burning). I noticed Ruger makes 243 in the 20". Would the shorter barrel not group as well?

I have yet to hold a Tikka in my hands but I am prepared to like it and the price is not that much more than the Savage. I am selling a 223 to help finance this purchase so coming up with a few extra bucks would not be a problem.

I was not aware that Savage was a good project gun with a bunch of aftermarket stuff availiable. That is good information to know.

Cal
 
My 243 is the CZ 550 Full Stock (FS). It has a 20" inch barrel and is a heck of a gun. It has the single set trigger (push it forward and it touches off with a very light pull) or use it standard. It's not heavy and recoil is very managable. It also come in 6.5 X 55 which would also be a good choice.
 
Cal-

I was in your same boat a little while ago and ended up going with a Sako Grey Wolf in .25-06. It is heavier than the Tikka and the action feels almost identical (it is the Tikka's big brother after all) but to me it seemed much more like a "real" rifle than the Tikka. Don't get me wrong, I have never read anything bad about a Tikka anywhere and it would probably shoot just as good as the Sako but for me the Tikka had a plasticky/toy feel to it whereas the Sako, being all metal and laminated wood, just felt better to me. I am not trying to slam the Tikka, but I would recommend you find a place to put your hands on one before you order something. I was agonizing over this whole deal awhile ago as the Sako is quite a bit more money and then all of the sudden a guy on gunbroker.com was selling a brrand new Sako for $850 (which is about $400-$500 less than it usually goes for). I was worried that something was amiss because the price was so good, but I made the leap and it was brand new in the box. I love the way it shoots and the recoil is non-existent compared to a 7mm mag. I am still trying to find a load that I like for deer and coyotes, but it seems to shoot everything I try out of it well.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.
 


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