Let me start off by saying that this is my first go-round at reloading, but I have a mentor helping me who has been at it for many years. I used once fired RP brass that I full lenght sized and trimmed to the shortest lenght recommended in my nosler manual. I decieded on RL-22, wincherster large rifle primers, and 100 gr nosler b-tips and 100gr sierra pro hunters, both seated .03 off the lands. I looked at different manuals and found anywhere from 54 to 58 gr was a max charge, so I started at 50 gr and worked up to 55 in one grain increments. At 55 gr, my case was almost full. I can still hear the powder moving around in the case if I shake the loaded shell. The loads of 55gr gave me the best groups with the b-tips and the GK's. However I had noticably flatter primers with them. Once I knew what I was looking at, I checked the primers from the other loads, including the 50gr loads, and noticed they had some flat primers also. But another thing I noticed was, not all of the primers were flat, even 1 55gr load had a non-flat primer. There were no other signs of pressure. No sticky bolt, cracked case necks, or shiny spots on the case head. I then read a few articles about newer RP brass having loose primer pockets. Could this be my problem? Since there are no other signs of pressure, would I be okay shooting the 55 gr load? It shot noticably better than all the other loads.
25-06 pressure signs?
- Thread starter Borden811
- Start date
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
The most common cause of flattened primers is resizing the brass too far. Screw the sizing die down just until the case will enter the chamber easily and no further.
Jack
Jack
headshot25-06
New member
my most accurate 25-06 load consists of 50gns. IMR 4007ssc 100gn nos.balistic tip oal is 3.195 only the r-p brass shows some flaten primers. mayby 3 out 10 .no other pressure signs. shoots under 3/4 in. groups. could be the brass.none of the other brass i use does this. good luck with your loading, and good huntin.
I have been working up a couple of loads for my 25-06. 100 grain Sierra and 117 Grain Hornady. I have R-P, Win and FC brass as well as some old 30-06 military that I have necked down. I am using River Valley Ordinance WC852 powder. I have two load sheets from them with differing loads so am starting at the lower load.
The R-P loads all have flattened primers and the others do not. I did get an ejector mark on my last 117 grain FC load. I can feel the mark edge with my finger nail so am backing it down 1/2 grain. No sticky bolt or any other signs.
It is interesting to me that the RP brass appears to be so different.
The R-P loads all have flattened primers and the others do not. I did get an ejector mark on my last 117 grain FC load. I can feel the mark edge with my finger nail so am backing it down 1/2 grain. No sticky bolt or any other signs.
It is interesting to me that the RP brass appears to be so different.
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borden - just going by memory from when i worked up my 25-06, but it seems to me your load is too light, not too heavy. i think the 'flattening' you are seeing is not from too much pressure, but too much movement in the case and not enough pressure to re-seat the primer.
check min and max loads - i think you're too light.
check min and max loads - i think you're too light.
Pretty sure it's not too light. 54-58 grains of RL-22 in a 25-06 case with 100 gr pill is the range of max loads according to the various books I have. I don't think I could get much more powder in the case without compressing the load when I would seat the bullet. I think from the responses above, and the fact that I don't see any other pressure signs at all, I'm not going to worry too much, but I'll definately keep an eye on it. I'll aslo try the sizing suggestion listed above. I'll do that Thursday night, and hopefully get to shoot on the weekend, and test it out. Thanks for all the help!
If it is a bolt gun, you only need to size enough to get the bolt to close. If you feel a tad bit of resistance when you close the bolt, you know the case is sized spot on. If it closes to easily (which means the case is sized down too far), the case can be thrust rearward and hit the bolt face and I think that is what Jack was getting at.
I understand now. So basically it's trial and error, using a case and sizing it exactly to my guns bore, starting long, and then going in miniscule amounts until the proper length is reached? I assume I could also buy a neck sizer die, and use the brass fired from my specific rifle and get the same results? The bolt definately closed easy on the ones I had previously sized. So, the force of the case hitting the bolt face would jar the primer loose and flatten it, as opposed to the primer being blown out of the case from too hot of a load?
BrentWin
New member
It takes a full length die to bump the shoulder back. It also sizes the neck at the same time.
A neck sizing die, is just that, it only sizes the neck of the case.
58 gr. of RL22 is getting pretty hot. You will probably find an accuracy node around 56 gr. I would suggest staying there until you get a little more experience as to what to look for inpressure signs.
A neck sizing die, is just that, it only sizes the neck of the case.
58 gr. of RL22 is getting pretty hot. You will probably find an accuracy node around 56 gr. I would suggest staying there until you get a little more experience as to what to look for inpressure signs.
You may not need to bump the shoulder back at all, or just very slightly. Just back the die out about 1/2 turn, size the case and see how the bolt feels when you close it on the empty case.
Adjust the die one way or another until you have it right.
If you ever need to completely FL Size again, just screw it in until it hits the shell holder.
Adjust the die one way or another until you have it right.
If you ever need to completely FL Size again, just screw it in until it hits the shell holder.
So, when I chamber the empty once fired brass now, it should fit tight in the gun correct(assuming it wasn't fired from my gun)? If it was fired from my gun, wouldn't it already fit perfectly, and would just need neck sized to be able to seat the bullet? I'm not being smart, just wanting to make sure I completely understand everything here before I get to work on it. Thanks!
BrentWin
New member
Once fired brass that has been fired in another gun, may not fit in your gun at all, depending on the chambers of each rifle. A round fired in your rifle will fit your rifle, because during firing, the brass expands to fit the chamber. It then springs back a couple of thousenths after the bullet leaves the barrel, but not all of the way back to original size.
Typically with my 25-06 AI, I have to FL size at about the 3rd or 4th loadings. The rest of the time I use a Lee Collet neck sizer.
By the time its ready for the second FL sizing, the primer pockets are loose and I throw it away instead. Different rounds will stand 10-12 loadings, but 6-7 is about all I can get out of the hot rounds.
Typically with my 25-06 AI, I have to FL size at about the 3rd or 4th loadings. The rest of the time I use a Lee Collet neck sizer.
By the time its ready for the second FL sizing, the primer pockets are loose and I throw it away instead. Different rounds will stand 10-12 loadings, but 6-7 is about all I can get out of the hot rounds.
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Originally Posted By: Borden811If it was fired from my gun, wouldn't it already fit perfectly, and would just need neck sized to be able to seat the bullet? I'm not being smart, just wanting to make sure I completely understand everything here before I get to work on it. Thanks!
It should fit, but it will still stretch each time your fire it till the bolt is hard to close. Then the shoulder needs to be bumped back. How long that takes, I don't know, but I'd guess it depends on how hot the load is.
As for your flat primers. If you can fire a case 5-6 times without the primer pockets getting loose, you are probably OK.
It should fit, but it will still stretch each time your fire it till the bolt is hard to close. Then the shoulder needs to be bumped back. How long that takes, I don't know, but I'd guess it depends on how hot the load is.
As for your flat primers. If you can fire a case 5-6 times without the primer pockets getting loose, you are probably OK.
I will second the Lee Collet Die. I use one for my 25-06. I size them, then turn them 180 degress or so and run them in again. I have almost no runout on the cartridges. I read about the technique some years ago in "Handloader" I believe.
If you stick with a standard die, just back it off as described above. BrentWin is correct about them not fitting at all - just depends. I always FL sized brass the first time through the gun, then used the Collet die after.
What brand primers are you using? CCI has very hard cups, Federals and some others are pretty soft and can flatten easily.
If you stick with a standard die, just back it off as described above. BrentWin is correct about them not fitting at all - just depends. I always FL sized brass the first time through the gun, then used the Collet die after.
What brand primers are you using? CCI has very hard cups, Federals and some others are pretty soft and can flatten easily.
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I'm using winchester large rifle primers. I'll have some spare time tonight, so I'm going to get to the loading bench and play with some of the brass, both once fired from other guns, and twice fired from my gun, and try the sizing technique you guys recommended. I'll report back. Thanks again for the help
I think I may do that. The first batch of loads I made up was with new once fired brass. People seem to be having trouble with the newer RP brass. I havd some older (10 years or so) twice fired brass that I just sized, trimmed and loaded up last night. I'm going to try them on the weekend and see how they do. If the results are the same, I'm going to see if I can find a box of winchester brass to try out, before I go and buy a bunch of it, and have the same results.