Starting to wonder why I bother with a five shot group. My grandpa was the reloader of the family and taught me about accuracy. He always said that any good rifle would eventually print a good 3 shot group, but a 5 shot group would tell u about the gun AND shooter. Since we got high speed internet here at the house I've joined a couple hunting forums basically for the new gun model reviews and reloading information and have noticed that most folks show 3 shot groups when they speak of accuracy. I have a photo of a 5 shot group from my 5R milspec .308 on here that measured .292. A three shot group would of surely been tighter. Just wondering what y'alls opinions were on this and if the 3 shot group had become widely accepted for accuracy of both the gun and shooter. Am I wasting ammo by shooting 5 instead of 3 when I get a load that groups tight and I want to show it off?
3 shot vs. 5 shot group
- Thread starter 2lazy2P
- Start date
Shoot however many it suits you, for your purposes. If I'm working up a load for a colony varmint rig with a heavy barrel, that I plan to shoot long strings with, I'll shoot some back-to-back-to-back five shot groups. Or maybe some ten and twenty shot groups. I want to see how a rig like that is going to act when it heats up and gets dirty.
A thin barrel, hot rod chambered, coyote hunting rig, I might be okay with three shot groups. Although, even then, I'll probably shoot at least a couple five or ten shot groups, just to see - I always want to know.
As far as an accepted "standard"? I think it's the average of five, five shot groups, shot in the same session.
One three shot group might be good enough to tell you, what you need to know. And that's fine. An average of several groups is a lot more telling in terms of just how accurate the rig really is though.
This target has four, five shot groups on it. It's an honest 1/4" rifle. The lower right target really isn't a group, it was a fouler/spotter mothball. I took the picture because of the fly I splattered at 100 yards on it - you can just make out some of his guts around the bullet hole.
- DAA
A thin barrel, hot rod chambered, coyote hunting rig, I might be okay with three shot groups. Although, even then, I'll probably shoot at least a couple five or ten shot groups, just to see - I always want to know.
As far as an accepted "standard"? I think it's the average of five, five shot groups, shot in the same session.
One three shot group might be good enough to tell you, what you need to know. And that's fine. An average of several groups is a lot more telling in terms of just how accurate the rig really is though.
This target has four, five shot groups on it. It's an honest 1/4" rifle. The lower right target really isn't a group, it was a fouler/spotter mothball. I took the picture because of the fly I splattered at 100 yards on it - you can just make out some of his guts around the bullet hole.
- DAA
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I used to always shoot 5 round groups.
Now, given increased costs & difficulties getting components, I use 3 rounds for primary load evaluation. I figure if the load doesn't give me 3 rounds into a group small enough to consider, wasting 2 more isn't going to make it any better.
I can shoot higher round count groups later when evaluating consistency of what has already shown enough potential to keep working with.
Now, given increased costs & difficulties getting components, I use 3 rounds for primary load evaluation. I figure if the load doesn't give me 3 rounds into a group small enough to consider, wasting 2 more isn't going to make it any better.
I can shoot higher round count groups later when evaluating consistency of what has already shown enough potential to keep working with.
Originally Posted By: Stu FarishI used to always shoot 5 round groups.
Now, given increased costs & difficulties getting components, I use 3 rounds for primary load evaluation. I figure if the load doesn't give me 3 rounds into a group small enough to consider, wasting 2 more isn't going to make it any better.
I can shoot higher round count groups later when evaluating consistency of what has already shown enough potential to keep working with.
I agree with you Stu. I prefer five shot groups but if you are shaking out speeds and quick look stuff for laod develpment three is OK.
Once I get it sorted out I'll shoot some fives. My last testing nvolved 36 differnt loads. Three shots at each told me a great deal and saved me about $30.00 in componets.
I found a couple good ones in it so have lots of data to look at for the final shakedown selection.
Greg
Now, given increased costs & difficulties getting components, I use 3 rounds for primary load evaluation. I figure if the load doesn't give me 3 rounds into a group small enough to consider, wasting 2 more isn't going to make it any better.
I can shoot higher round count groups later when evaluating consistency of what has already shown enough potential to keep working with.
I agree with you Stu. I prefer five shot groups but if you are shaking out speeds and quick look stuff for laod develpment three is OK.
Once I get it sorted out I'll shoot some fives. My last testing nvolved 36 differnt loads. Three shots at each told me a great deal and saved me about $30.00 in componets.
I found a couple good ones in it so have lots of data to look at for the final shakedown selection.
Greg
vt coy caller
New member
I found my guns to be wayy more accurate when I went from shooting 6round groups to three rounds, most of my moa loads went down to half to 3/4 moa!!! :-D
No seriously [beeep] I do like Stu and load three for testing and if they show any promise ill load up a couple more. It all depends on what you expect for results, if a one inch 5 shot group is good enough to go hunting with then no need to burn up more components. If you wanna shoot small groups to impress your buds well you better stick with a lower round count!
What is wrong with the word "T H O" seriously I get freekin beeped every time!!
No seriously [beeep] I do like Stu and load three for testing and if they show any promise ill load up a couple more. It all depends on what you expect for results, if a one inch 5 shot group is good enough to go hunting with then no need to burn up more components. If you wanna shoot small groups to impress your buds well you better stick with a lower round count!
What is wrong with the word "T H O" seriously I get freekin beeped every time!!
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The Famous Grouse
New member
Your grandpa was right. A 5 shot group shows all and tells all. Anyone can get lucky with a 3 shot group, but 5 shots tell the whole story because chance is less likely to show an artifically small group that was really produced by chance, not the rifle or the shooter.
3 shots are fine for quick assessments, but only real groups of 5 shots show reliable results when the goal is to assess the real potential of a load.
Grouse
3 shots are fine for quick assessments, but only real groups of 5 shots show reliable results when the goal is to assess the real potential of a load.
Grouse
Thanks fellas, I pretty much do the same as y'all, load a few different combinations and from those determine what I'm looking for. I guess when friends show me their best loads and groups from that load I should just leave well enough alone but I always want to ask them where their 5 shot groups are. Papaw doesn't shoot with me much anymore but we always shot four 5 shot groups when dialing a rifle in for us or people that wanted him to do it for them. That way if they didn't reload they were only out one box of shells. BTW, DAA that's some fine shooting right there.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
"T H O" is not an English word. It is someone's name..
Jack
Jack
lyotehunter
New member
shells were cheaper when your grandpa taught you and you could get all you needed,seriously three works fine
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
While I can agree that a 3 shot string will give you an initial accuracy result, the real proof in the pudding will even be questionable with only five rounds...Even a blind pig will find an acorn occasionally...
It really depends on the intention of the use for the rounds...For dependence on a "Cold Bore" first shot, a lot of care has to be exercised at the range to insure that the bore is in the condition in which it will be used, whether clean or fouled, but it must be cold (ambient temperature)...For Varmint or competition type shooting, I want a well fouled, warm barrel..
I generally will load ten rounds of each combination of increments in test loads, as if I get a good three round grouping with one combination, I want a total of five rounds for my peace of mind initially, and then the second five for verification...I can always break down the unused rounds to save the components for the validated loads..
Since, normally, my shooting ranges are from 45-60 miles away, I prefer to make one trip, even though it may take me all day to complete the process, to provide the information I need...
It really depends on the intention of the use for the rounds...For dependence on a "Cold Bore" first shot, a lot of care has to be exercised at the range to insure that the bore is in the condition in which it will be used, whether clean or fouled, but it must be cold (ambient temperature)...For Varmint or competition type shooting, I want a well fouled, warm barrel..
I generally will load ten rounds of each combination of increments in test loads, as if I get a good three round grouping with one combination, I want a total of five rounds for my peace of mind initially, and then the second five for verification...I can always break down the unused rounds to save the components for the validated loads..
Since, normally, my shooting ranges are from 45-60 miles away, I prefer to make one trip, even though it may take me all day to complete the process, to provide the information I need...
vt coy caller
New member
Originally Posted By: Jack Roberts"T H O" is not an English word. It is someone's name..
Jack
Neither is bonjour and so is George what's the point?
I completely agree with old turtle on this one, im just not capable of typing that much. "although" my range is about 15 feet from my reloading room so I often will load one round at a time after find promise in a three shot group and continue from there depending on the desired result.
Jack
Neither is bonjour and so is George what's the point?
I completely agree with old turtle on this one, im just not capable of typing that much. "although" my range is about 15 feet from my reloading room so I often will load one round at a time after find promise in a three shot group and continue from there depending on the desired result.
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Coyotejunki
Well-known member
the three letters you get censored on is the name of a banned individual
vt coy caller
New member
Originally Posted By: Coyotejunkithe three letters you get censored on is the name of a banned individual
well that would make a little more sense, thank you. Also happy birthday!
well that would make a little more sense, thank you. Also happy birthday!
dogtired
New member
The variance is a parameter that describes, in part, either the actual probability distribution of an observed population of numbers, or the theoretical probability distribution of a not-fully-observed population from which a sample of numbers has been drawn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
wikipedia. Now there is a real reliable source!!!
Jack
Jack
I like to shoot and my early mentors believe in the purity of a 5 shot group. Does it really make a difference I doubt it. With light pleasant recoiling calibers I shoot 5 shot groups if I have the ammo. For my magnum calibers in light hunting rifles I stick with three shot groups. My Remington 300 RUM CDL shoots really tight 3 shot groups. My excuse for not shooting 5 shot groups is that the gun heats up to fast!!!!